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this is jaco podcast number 156 with echo Charles and me Jocko Willick good evening I come good evening resistance why didn’t you resist today those who have continued to live on and comfort scold those who suffered yes resistance should have begun right there at the moment of the arrest itself but it did not begin during a daylight arrest there is always that brief and unique moment when they are leading you either inconspicuously on the basis of a cowardly deal you have made or else quite openly their pistols on holstered through a crowd of hundreds of just such doomed innocence as yourself you aren’t gagged you really can and you really ought to cry out to cry out you are being arrested that villains in disguise are trapping people that arrests are being made on the strength of false denunciations that millions are being subjected to silent reprisals if many such out cries had been heard all over the city in the course of a day would not our fellow citizens perhaps have begun to bristle and what a rat and what arrests perhaps no longer have been so easy instead not one sound comes from your parched lips and that passing crowd naively believes that you and your executioner’s are friends out for a stroll I myself often had the chance to cry out so why did I keep silent why in my last minute out in the open did I not attempt to enlighten the hoodwinked crowd why did I keep silent every man always has a dozen glib little reasons why he is right not to sacrifice himself some still have hopes of a favorable outcome to their case and are afraid to ruin their chances by outcry so they keep silent and that right there is part of the opening of book 1 part 1 of the book The Gulag Archipelago by source Nitin and I discussed it on the last podcast with Jordan Peterson but I didn’t dig into the actual text very much because well I had Jordan Peterson on here and I would rather just talk with him and allow him to talk rather than read and delve into the text itself but the text is really good and I wanted to take today to go through at least well to go through today part 1 of The Gulag Archipelago and the version that I’m going through is not the abridged version but the full unabridged version so if you end up looking for some of these passages in the abridged version you might not find them and I’m only going to go through part one today and maybe over time we’ll go through all seven parts that are in three different volumes massive volumes by the way this one is 600 pages long part two volume two it looks like about another 600 pages and then volume three looks to be I don’t know maybe four or five hundred pages so I think we’re talking maybe 1,500 to 2,000 pages but it’s a it’s a great read and like I said in the future if you get these will go will I will say this in the future yes we will go through all the books if you want to get them now and read them then eventually you’ll be able to roll through them with us and it’s as I said I mean this this this book is a very powerful book but I said this one when I was talking to Jordan it’s written and you could hear from even the opening there it’s it’s almost a conversation it’s a very conversational writing that social Knutson does and so it’s it’s pretty easy to read because it’s not it’s just very calm it sounds like somebody’s telling you a story is basically what it’s like he’s got asking you questions rhetorical questions he’s interacting with you the reader so it’s a pretty fun read and it’s not fun in the fact that you’re reading about people being trapped tortured murdered in a gulag but

he does it you know in a light-hearted way if that’s possible is that possible I don’t know it’s possible but he seems to pull it off I mean you can even see just just what I just read you know you can see he’s having a conversation with you about it mm-hmm you know he’s having a conversation so that’s what it’s like let’s go back to the book and I’m gonna pick up in a section where he’s kind of explaining and and I talked about this with Jordan and by the way yeah so if you haven’t listened to 155 with Jordan Peterson where we we discussed some of this some of the ideas in this book we don’t we don’t delve into the book too much and I’m actually gonna cover those parts there’s two little sections that we covered I’m gonna cover them again today and kind of go in a little bit more but if you haven’t listened to 155 listened to 155 and then then come back and listen to this this one this section of the book Solzhenitsyn is talking about the fact that he’s a war hero for all practical purposes and he’s about to get rolled up and arrested by his brigade commander and here he’s talking about his brigade commander in the situation that he’s now going into ten days before I had led my own reconnaissance battery almost intact out of the fire pocket in which the twelve heavy guns of his artillery valiant battalion had been left and now he had to renounce me because of a piece of paper with a seal on it I knew instantly I had been arrested because of my correspondence with a school friend and understood from what direction to expect danger so he’s been a fire pocket if you don’t know what that means it means he was surrounded by the enemy and he was able to lead his troops out of there almost intact which means they took some casualties maybe lost some guys but he was able to lead his men out of there and yet he wrote a letter and he mentions earlier like what he says in the letter basically says that the leadership the Stalin’s making some mistakes and guess what they scream those letters they read what he wrote and they arrest him so war is hell and he talks a little bit about that here for three weeks the war had been going on inside Germany and all of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot this was almost a combat distinction had they been Polish girls or our own displaced Russian girls they could have been chased naked around the garden and slapped on the behind an amusement no more by the way that’s just a little a little shot of what that war between the Russians and the Germans was the Russians in the German we talked about in Stalingrad but and we talked a little bit about what happened with civilians there’s a little taste of what happens to civilians in those situations it’s a nightmare going on the history this is chapter 2 the history of our sewage disposal system and this is where he expands and explains sort of his view of the prisons as a whole back to the book it is well known that any organ withers away if it is not used therefore if we know that the Soviet security organ or organs and they christened themselves with this vile word praised and exalted above all living things have not died off even to the extent of one single tentacle but instead have grown new ones and strengthened their muscles it is easy to deduce that they have had constant exercise through the sewer pipes the flow pulsed sometimes the pressure was higher than X then had been projected sometimes lower but the prison sewers were never empty the blood the sweat and the urine into which we were pulped pulsed through them continuously and he uses this this term which I guess the the Soviets actually called the prison system organs and how the blood of the organs was these people and this is something that I talked a little bit about with Jordan back to the book and even though Lenin at the end of 1917 in order to establish strictly revolutionary order demanded merciless suppression of attempts at Anarchy on the part of drunkards hooligans counter-revolutionaries and other persons so that’s how it starts off it starts off with that we’re going after these are people that need to be rounded up the people that need to be rounded up are drunkards hooligans counter revolutionaries in other persons that’s where it starts and then it continues and it goes on and he writes an essay

Lenin writes an essay called how to organize how to organize the competition and he proclaimed this again this is Len pro crank proclaimed common you the common United purpose of purging the Russian land of all kinds of harmful insects and the term insects and under the term insects he included not only all class enemies but also workers malingering at their work for example the typesetters of the Petrograd party printing shops so you can see you can see this is starting to expand already it starts off just hey it’s hooligans and drunkards and counter revolutionaries now all of a sudden it’s getting towards workers that are being lazy you’re being a little bit lazy guess what you need to be you need to be arrested and you’re one of these insects and then this is how this grows and he goes through this massive list of the people that need to that become insects and he describes him as insects so this included local self governing bodies in the provinces they were insects and people in the co-operative movements they were insects as were anyone that owned their own home was an insect there were not a few insects among the teachers in the gymnasiums and the church parish councils were made up almost exclusively of insects all priests were insects and all those Tolstoi ins who when they undertook to serve the Soviet government for example on the railroads refused to sign the required oath to defend the Soviet government with gun in hand thereby showed themselves to be insects to the railroads were particularly important for there were indeed many insects hidden beneath the railroad and telegraphers they were insects and he just goes on and on um all Russian Executive Committee of the Union of railroad workers and other trade units were also often filled with insects hostile to the working class so this paragraph just goes on and on and basically what if what it ends up as everyone’s an insect that’s how it ends up everyone’s an insect and therefore everyone must be arrested eventually here’s here’s another expansion here the this is the a decree from the Council of people’s come commit comma czars signed by Lenin on July 22nd 1918 those guilty of selling or buying up or keeping for sale in the way of business food products which have been placed under the monopoly of the Republic they deserve imprisonment for a term of not less than ten years combined with the most severe forced labor and confiscation of all their property so if you operate on any kind of black-market whatsoever ten years confiscation of everything you own that’s where we’re at right now 1921 began with the Cheka order number ten dated January 8th to intensify the repression of the bourgeoisie now when the Civil War had ended repression was not to be reduced but intensified so the civil war is over the revolutions over and you think okay the revolution is over we can back off a little bit no no now we’re gonna go harder in that same year the practice of arresting students began the arrests of members of all non Bolshevik parties were expanded and systematized not one citizen of the former Russian state who had ever joined a party other than the Bolshevik Party could avoid his fate men of religion were an inevitable part of every annual catch and their silver locks gleamed in every cell and in every prisoner transport on route to the soul that’s the islands and those are prisons monks and nuns so who’s black habits had been a distinctive feature of old Russian life were intensively rounded up on every hand placed under arrest and sent into exile as Tonya Kodava CH wrote you can pray feedly you can pray freely but just so God alone can hear so you’re allowed to pray but only God can hear it meaning don’t let anyone else hear it and by the way because she wrote that she got a

10-year sentence for that all persons convicted of religious activity received tanner’s which is the 10-year sentence hmm so you can see how this just gets completely out of control and one thing about this book is it’s it’s not really chronological mmm so it goes through whole like this first chapters it goes through from like the revolution all the way through after the war so and then you and then in you go through it’s not chronological it just kind of jumps around a little bit so you have to you kind of have to just pay attention the whole time to what timeframe he’s talking about luckily he gives a lot of dates on when things are happening for instance here back to the book this therapy continued full speed from 1927 on and immediately exposed to the proletariat all the causes of our economic failures and sorta jizz okay let’s pay attention to this all the causes of our economic failures and shortages so obviously Russia’s going through all kinds of problems at this time and here’s what caused them there was wrecking and wrecking as their term for basically a saboteur someone that’s causing the problems is a wrecker there was wrecking in the people’s commissariat of railroads that was why it was hard to get aboard the train and why there were interruptions and supplies there were there was wrecking in the Moscow electric power system and interruptions in power there was wrecking in the oil industry hence the shortage of kerosene kerosene there was wreckage and textile hence nothing for a working man to wear where the in the coal industry there was colossal wrecking hence no heat in the metal of Giroux in the metal of jury defense machinery shipbuilding chemical mining gold and platinum industries in irrigation and where there were these pus-filled boils of wrecking enemies with slide rules were on all sides so there they have problems in the country and it’s what the party is saying hey this is because we’ve got these these wreckers these saboteurs everywhere enemies with slide rules the GPU puffed and panted in its efforts to grab off and drag off all the Wreckers in the capitals and in the Providence provinces the GPU Collegium x’ and the proletarian courts kept hard at work sifting through the viscous sewage and every day the workers gasped to learn and sometimes they didn’t learn from the papers of new vile deeds so you had the the the the state press putting out all this is what’s happening these the wreckers every industry every factory in every handicraft art l had to find wreckers in its ranks a noose no sooner had they begun to look than they found them continues on when not long afterward the new people’s commissar of the railroads ordered that average loads should be increased and even doubled and then tripled and for this discovery received order of lenin along with other others of our leaders the malicious engineers who protested became known as known as limiters they raised the outcry that this was too much and would result in the breakdowns of the rolling stock and they were rightly shot for their lack of faith in the possibilities of socialist transport so that right there sums up a lot because you’re in this situation and there’s some buddy at the top that’s saying oh we we need to transport more stuff on the railroads cool just load them up more any actual engineers are saying they can’t handle that much weight Hey they can’t handle that much weight it’s gonna ruin the trains it’s gonna break the trains and what do they do she shoot him in the back shoot him in the back of the head because and they called him limiters they gave him a name you’re a limiter you just don’t want to make this happen that’s your problem mm-hmm and there’s a there’s a great passage that I read in a book that I’m gonna read right now and this book that I’m gonna pull a real quick passage from that’s a book called basic economics written by a famous very famous economist I should say named Thomas Salle and he’s just talking about he’s talking about how they tried to regulate

prices in the Soviet Union in other words we’re gonna set the prices yeah everything and he says and it says this so this is from this is the role of prices is the name of the chapter in basic economics by Thomas all the significant the significance of free-market prices in the allocation of resources can be seen more clearly by looking at situations where prices are not allowed to perform this function during the era of the government directed economy of the Soviet Union for example prices were not set by supply and demand but by central planners who sent resources to their various uses by direct commands supplemented by prices that the planners raised or lowered as they saw fit and now he goes into this part where he takes these two Soviet economists and they described a situation in which their government raised the price it would pay for mold skins leading hunters to sell more of them and here’s that description and this is these two Soviet economists shmell eV and popoff who described the situation where the government raised the price of pay for muskets here we go state purchases increased and now all the distribution centers are filled with these pelts industry is unable to use them all and they often rot in warehouses before they can be processed the Ministry of light industry has already requested go scot common the ministry of light industry has already requested twice to lower purchasing prices but the question has not been decided yet and this is not surprising its members are too busy to decide they have no time besides setting the prices on these pelts they have to keep track of another 24 million prices so that’s what happens and that’s what’s going on you’ve got somebody trying to essentially it’s the opposite of decentralized command so you’ve got you’ve got people trying to figure out what appel to what this moleskin Pelt should cost and what happens is when they when the government raises the price they’ll pay for it what do all the people do they go and gather more of these pelts and now there’s an overstock of them and they try and get them to lower the prices so people want to stock will stop turn them in but they can’t do it quick enough because I got 24 million other prices that they gotta set for the government so that in a nutshell is why all these problems are one of the major reasons why all these problems are occurring mm-hmm and whenever somebody tries to resist what commands are being given they’re getting shot limiters yeah and this is one I talked about a little bit with Jordan in September 1930 the famine organizers were tried with a great hue and cry they were the ones there they are there were 48 wreckers in the food industry Stalin carried out the first such effort in connection with the trial of the famine organisers and how could it not succeed when everyone was starving in mountainous Russia and everyone was always looking about and asking where did all our dear bread get to therefore before the court verdict the workers and employees wrathful II voted for the death penalty for the scoundrels on trial it was the newspaper of millions and the roar rose outside the windows of the courtroom death death death so for these types of reasons for this centralized command doesn’t work not to mention we you know what they did took the farms away from the people that actually knew had a farm there’s complete famine and their blood they’re blaming it on the 48 people that were saboteurs inside the the agriculture industry completely insane and this one I read with Jordan I’m gonna read it again in the Russian in Russian a Kulak is a miserly dishonest rural trader who grows rich not by his own labor but through someone else’s through usury and operating as a middleman in every locality even before the Revolution such cruel acts could be numbered on one’s fingers and the revolution totally destroyed their basis of activity subsequently after 1917 by a transfer of meaning the name Kulak began to be applied to all those who in any way hired workers even if it was only when they were temporarily short of working hands in their own families so a Kulak started off as someone that was trying to you know rip people off but then they just started applying it to everyone

anyone that hired someone was a Kulak and it has a derogatory tone to it continuing on but the inflation of this scathing term Kulak proceeded relentlessly and by 1930 all strong peasants in general were being or being so-called all peasants strong and management strong and work or even strong merely in convictions the term Kulik was used to smash the strength of the peasantry beyond this in every village there were people who in one way or another had personally gotten in the way of the local activists this was the perfect time to settle accounts with them of jealousy envy and insult a new word was needed for all those victims as a class and it was born by this time it had no social or economic content whatsoever but had a marvelous sound pop cool actinic a person aiding the cool acts in other words I consider you a compliment accomplice of the enemy now what’s interesting about this and I had I had a bunch of people point this out this this is when we take words powerful words and we start to throw them at people we use them universally that’s that’s gonna cause a problem mm-hmm and you can see it all the time right now in social media and in the yeah I guess you see it primarily in social media from like far left extremists and far-right extremists to the far right anybody that’s to the left to them is like a communist to the far left anybody that’s to the right of them is a racist or a Nazi and they throw those words around and those words that you shouldn’t use those words it’s like using Kulak like that’s not the person that hires someone isn’t a Kulak right like that doesn’t work so we escalate these terms hmm and that’s that’s not a healthy thing to do hmm I mean I think it was um when yeah I mean when Jordan Pederson gets compared to Adolf Hitler yeah right they compared Jordan Peterson to Adolf Hitler come on yeah okay you don’t like some of Jordans ideas yeah okay that’s cool don’t call them Adolf Hitler yeah like that’s just not realistic yeah it’s not helpful to you know or people don’t like his ideas or whatever like for a specific reason you know rather than identify the reason they just like package them up and put a ugly bowtie on it and be like yeah I I hate you kind of thing in the right you know if you think about during McCarthyism right it was a anti-american you’re anti-american you’re a communist it was like they were flagging people like that mm-hmm so both sides can do this in this case it’s in this case the it’s the Communists be escalating these terms we’ve seen the right do it we see the left do it not a smart thing to do don’t throw those terms out mmm where they don’t belong yeah talk to him about this a little bit with Jordan there was a wave and we talked about wave you talking about waves of people that would flow into the prisons and there’s all these different ways she talks about dozens and dozens of different waves there was a wave four snipping ears the nighttime snipping of individual ears of grain in the field a totally new type of Agriculture activity a new type of harvesting the wave of those caught doing this was not small and included many tens of thousands of peasants many of them not even adults but boys girls and small children whose elders had sent them out at night to snip because they had no hope of receiving anything from the collective farm for their daytime labor labor for this bitter and not very productive occupation an extreme of poverty to which the peasants had not been driven even in serfdom the courts handed out a full measure ten years for what ranked as an especially dangerous theft of socialist property okay that again that’s why I say this book is kind of like to read right I mean he’s he’s he’s kind of funny right an especially dangerous theft of socialist properties talking about taking one ear of of grain yeah is he saying that like on his own kind of thing or is is that what what the people would say that’s the same as Co that’s what the authorities you stole communist socialist property you stole it and you must be destroyed yeah in ten years cuz you took a little piece of grain yes like these like if you get a I don’t know jaywalking ticket or something hey you committed a crime here criminal you know kind of thing ya can just call someone a criminal yeah usually has much even though technically

you know they’re not kind of wrong you know yeah I got rolled up in Vegas yeah I got rolled up in Vegas criminal I was with Sarge she we were crossing one of the big streets in Vegas and I had to grab something or I drop something last time I she were doing something in the walking light went red but the cars weren’t going yet and Sarge had already walked across so I just kind of jogged across like you know before and a car started moving yeah squad car lights then 10 seconds later four squad cars I don’t know if they thought I was somebody else so I’m there you know on on the curb face down face down Sarge is videoing it yes I was a criminal way so you but what then did what they do do you get arrest you know they gave me a ticket get a walking freak a walking yeah well I guess criminal right what’s the criminy probably thought they probably thought oh we’re gonna roll up this drunk idiot yeah I’m totally there for the UFC you know I was up there with a fighter I don’t we were probably going to a you know cut weight or something with a fighter yeah and there I am getting rolled up they must have thought I was somebody else oh yeah I mean you’re on a big you know and it’s like hey this guy looks like he could trouble or something jaywalking you know obviously it but the I guess when you think about a criminal right criminal what’s what’s what is that is that like someone who commits imaginary in this case what they’d say is oh you were blocking the transportation of socialist property there for you that’s a crime against the state you’ve got ten years that’s exactly what we’re talking about yeah that’s exactly what we’re talking about yeah it’s like when people throw around jaywalking get your ten years for going out and clipping a single grain of a single year of corn or grain yeah getting ten years for that and you know you’re 12 years old or whatever yeah crime against the state it’s like when people throw around the word treason you know you know like when people get into political debate no that’s treason yeah that’s yes you’re right there’s people throw that word around it shouldn’t be thrown around be careful when you when you commit treason that’s definitely it’s a big deal man so people say what’s a good example of that’s treason yeah treason is a big deal you shouldn’t throw that word around unless you’re thinking somebody needs to the death penalty yeah so yes a good example check back to the book paradoxically enough every act of the all penetrating eternally wakeful organs over a span of many years was based solely on one article of the hundred and forty articles of the non general division of the criminal Criminal Code of 1926 so this is where all this crap came from they wrote this Criminal Code of 1926 and the including the great powerful abundant highly ramified multiform wide sweeping article 58 which summed up the world not so much through the exact terms and of its sections as in their extended dialectical interpretation in all truth there is no step thought action or lack of action under the heavens which could not be punished by the heavy hand of article 58 the article itself could not be worded in such broad terms but it proved possible to interpret it this broadly article 58 was not in that division of the code dealing with the political crimes and no where was it categorized as political no it was included with crimes against Public Order and organized gangsterism in a division of crimes against the state and then he goes through all these various sections of article 58 which had fourteen sections in section one we learned that any action and according to article six of the Criminal Code any absence of action directed toward the weakening of state power was considered to be counter-revolutionary broadly interpreted this turned out to include the refusal of a prisoner in camp to work when in the state when in a state of starvation and exhaustion that was a weakening of state power and it was punished by execution because if you’re in prison and you’re starving but you’re not doing the work you’re supposed to do you’re doing something that’s hurting States they need to die this is okay you can’t I was having trouble and I think even Jordan like we were trying to get the explain that this is like a sick comedy yeah like you can’t we kept saying back and forth to each other we’re like you can’t make this up you can’t make this up like you can’t make that up mmm and this is real yeah this a sick comedy that’s an interesting yet kind of

accurate way you know it’s like you know how I can’t think of an example you know someone will like he’ll say I don’t know cable actually you know what it was it’s like some cable commercial they say they do this it’s in a funny way a comedy way they’ll say hey um don’t get cable because if and then they’ll say like what does he say so something like yeah if you don’t listen to your parents you don’t do your homework if you don’t do your homework you don’t get a good job if you don’t get a good job you don’t you know and it’s this whole thing you had the in rack house yeah so don’t end up in a crack house you know kind of thing and they relate it to the singing it’s like I see what you did there you know in each one but it’s like you just mean funny like obviously that’s not that you know but they’re just drawing all these parallels to everything so this lonely must be the same you know kind of thing you know like yeah if you get kid if you cancel keep oh I forget hug those but well to your point this is that kind of this sounds like yes be that crazy exactly but there but this is real when our soldiers were sentenced to only 10 years for allowing themselves to be taken prisoner action injurious to the Soviet military might this was humanitarian to the point of being illegal according to the Stalinist code they all should have been shot upon their return home so they’re saying you know what the people that were allowed the Soviet soldiers that allowed themselves to be captured they only got 10 years which is actually kind of illegal because they should have been shot via article 19 of the criminal code via intent in other words no treason had taken place but the interrogator envisioned an intention to betray and that was enough to justify a full term the same as actual so if I just think you had the intent that’s good enough you’re getting 10 years section 3 was assisting in any way or by any means a foreign state at war this section made it possible to condemn any citizen who had been in occupied territory whether he had nailed on the peel of a German soldier shoe or sold him a bunch of radishes you get your tenner right there there’s these two things psh which is suspicion of espionage and then nsh which is on proven espen espionage you can charge someone with unproven espionage what does that even mean hey we’re just you know we’re you’re guilty for unproven that’s like you’re guilty of unproven murder what does that mean well it’s not proven but that’s what you’re guilty of and that’s why you’re gonna die yeah or maybe it’s the kind like you know here you they’ll say like hey he’s uh he’s an alleged you know before you’re proven in the court of law kind maybe you’re in that window you know no even espionage and you’re gonna go to prison for 10 years for it section 8 covered terror terror was construed in a very broad sense not simply a matter of putting bombs under governor’s carriages but for example smashing the face of a personal enemy if he was an activist in the party or the police that was terror and then he starts talking about section 10 which is propaganda or agitation containing an appeal for the overflow subverting or weakening of the Soviet power and equally the dissemination or preparation or possession of literary materials of similar content so any if you’re drawn in propaganda you can get trouble but here we go the term preparation of literary materials covered every letter note or private diary even when only the original document existed so anything that you write down is subject well that’s why he went to prison for a letter the real law underlying the arrest all those years was the assignment of quotas the norm set the planned allocations every city every district every military unit was assigned a specific quota arrests to be carried out by a stipulated time that’s like when cops get the the quota for the speeding tickets yeah that’s when you get the ticket refer for the 38 in a 35 is that true though sometimes it is yeah I don’t know I thought I mean I thought it’s true but I have no idea like is that just a myth you know how like people they did they’re just mad because they got a ticket it’s not even real you know like that’s not even a real thing mmm I have no idea it could be a method I just believe yeah you know cuz you’ve probably got that ticket when you’re going 38 in the 35 me neither that’s why I’m questioning it I did get pulled over a few months ago but lie bruh you tinted windows no I was going too fast in this area Oh straight-up speeding yeah but you got off B give you a break yeah cuz they

recognize you no check back to the book piles of victims hills of victims here’s some other people get arrested an electrician had a high-tension line break in his sector 58 seven that’s the article 20 years a plumber turned off the loudspeaker in his room every time the endless letters to Stalin were being read his next-door neighbour denounced him we’re aware is that neighbor today he got SOE socially dangerous element eight years by the end of number by the end of summer 1941 becoming bigger in the autumn the wave of the encircled was surging and again the waves talking about waves of prisoners that are showing up the waves of the encircled were surging in these were the defenders of their native land the very same warriors whom the cities had seen sent off to the front with bouquets and bans a few months before who had then sustained the heaviest tank assaults of the Germans and in the general chaos then through no fault of their own had spent a certain time as isolated units not in enemy imprisonment not at all but in temporary encirclement and later had broken out you understand what that means that means they’re surrounded by the enemy didn’t get captured by the enemy they get surrounded for a little while and then they break out and they get back to friendly lines and instead of back to look and instead of being given a brotherly embrace on their return such as every other army in the world would have given them instead of being given a chance to rest up to visit their families and then return to their units they were held on suspicion disarmed deprived of Rights and taken away in groups to identification points and screening centres where officers of the special branches started interrogating them distrusting not only their every word but their very identity traitors of the motherland under 58:1 be but at first until the standard penalty was finally determined they got less than 10 years you can’t imagine that people would go along we can’t imagine that people go along with this right the level of fear that you have to have as a nation and as a people to go along with that right there are our frontline troops were surrounded by the enemy they managed to escape and get back and now we’re gonna put them on trial and put them in prison it’s it’s it’s insanity next chapter talks about interrogation going to the book if the intellectuals in the plays of Chekhov who spent all their time guessing what would happen in 20 30 or 40 years had been told that in 40 years interrogation by torture would be practiced in Russia that prisoners would have their skulls squeezed with iron rings that a human being would be lowered into an acid bath that they would be trussed up naked to be bitten by ants and bedbugs that a ramrod heated over a Primus stove would be thrust up their anal canal the secret brand that a man’s genitals would be slowly crushed beneath the toe of a jack boot and that in the luckiest possible circumstances prisoners would be tortured by being kept from sleeping for a week by thirst and by being beaten to a bloody pulp not one of Chekhov’s plays would have gotten to its end because all the heroes would have gone off to insane asylums if the intellectuals in the plays of Chekhov who spent all their time guessing what would happen in 20 30 or 40 years had been told that in 40 years interrogation by torture would be practiced in Russia that prisoners would have their skulls squeezed within iron rings that a human being would be lowered into an acid bath that they would be trussed up naked to be bitten by ants and bedbugs that a ramrod heated over a Primus stove would be thrust up their anal canal that a man’s genitals would be slowly crushed beneath the toe of a jack boot and that in the luckiest possible circumstances prisoners would be tortured by being kept from sleeping for a week by thirst and by being beaten into a bloody pulp not one of check-offs plays would have gotten to its end because all the heroes would have gone off to insane asylums horrible so they had these you know they’re doing these savage

interrogations and torture continuing on the time allotted for investigation was not used to unravel the crime in 95 cases out of a hundred to exhaust we’re down weaken and render helpless the defendant so that he would want to end it at any cost then he talks about some of the methods that were used and you talked about some of the torture and these were just some of the kind of the the basic the the baseline abuse that you’re gonna get you’re gonna get kept from sleep you’re gonna get persuasion they’d say look you’re gonna get prison term no matter what happens but if you resist you’ll croak right here in prison you’ll lose your health but if you go to camp you’ll have fresh air and sunlight so why not sign this paper right now they do that they do they do psychological contrast you know good cop bad cop humiliation extreme confusion intimidation they tell them we’ve got hard labor camps now if you confess you go to an easy camp but if you’re Stunner stubborn you’ll get 25 years in handcuffs in the mines they lie of course they play on the affections for those one loved will arrest your daughter and locker in a cell with syphilitic s– that’s that one that they always throw right they’re gonna break they can’t break you cool hmm guess what they’re gonna do to your daughter guess what they’re gonna do to your wife guess what they’re gonna do to your son mm-hmm now he has a great paragraph and I talked about this a little bit with Jordan but it’s a reflecting on his behavior and this is when he started talking and again I skipped through a lot of the interrogation you have to read the book you have to read the whole book and if you really jump into that I hit the the high wave tops of it and this section he’s talking about the guards right the people that they call he called them blue caps these are people that were the guards the people that were processing you through the gulags and you know much like most like Jordan kind of talks about seeing himself as the bad guy right the perpetrator as opposed to always seeing like oh everyone thinks I wouldn’t do that I’d be one of these victims he saw Smithson sees himself in a way he reflects on the way he behaved actually as an officer as a privileged officer in the Russian army and this is this is such a great little section about leadership because it tells you what not to do as a leader so here we go and this is a great start off to this it starts off here back to the book Pride grows in the human heart like lard on a pig I tossed out orders to my subordinates that I would not allow them to question convinced that no orders could be wiser let’s check number one right there is these are things not to do as leader I throw out orders to my subordinates without letting him question them convinced in his own mind that dije my orders are the best worst completely wrong next even at the front where one might have thought death made equals of us all my power soon convinced me that I was a superior human being wrong you’re not better than your troops next seated there I heard them out as they stood at attention I interrupted them I issued commands I addressed fathers and grandfathers with the familiar downgrading form of address while they of course addressed me formally I sent them out to repair wire under shellfire so that my superiors would not reproach me I ate my officers ration of butter with rolls without giving a thought as to why I had a right to do it and why the rank-and-file soldiers did not so hey we’re out there in the field you’re gonna eat whatever shoe leather and I’m over here eating my butter would rolls I of course had a personal servant assigned to me in polite terms and orderly whom I badgered one way or another in ordered to look after my person and prepare my meals separately from the soldiers I forced my soldiers to put their backs into it and dig me a special dugout at every new bivouac and

to haul the heaviest beams to support it so that I would be as comfortable and as safe as possible and wait a minute yes my battery always had a guardhouse – meaning a little prison cell what kind of guardhouse could there be in the woods it was a pit of course although it had a roof on it it talks about imprisoning some fish cough was in prison there for losing his horse and popped off from maltreating his carbine yes just a moment I can remember more they showed me a map case out of a German hide not human but from a car seat but I didn’t have a strap for it and I was unhappy about that then all of a sudden they saw some partisan commissar from the local district party committee wearing just the right kind of strap and they took it away from him we are the army we have seniority finally I coveted that scarlet box and I remember how they took it away and got it for me that’s what shoulder boards do to a human being so when you get rank when you put on those shoulder boards mm-hmm keep your ego in check don’t don’t act like that then believe me I mean I saw plenty of people like act like that in the military and they were hated by their troops hmm continuing on so let the reader who expects this book to be a political expose slam its cover shut right now if it were only also simple if only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being and who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart so if you’re not careful you got that evil in you during the life of any heart this line keeps changing place sometimes it’s squeezed one way by exuberant evil and sometimes it’s shifts to allow enough space for good to flourish one and the same human being is at various ages and under various circumstances a totally different human being at times he is close to being a devil at times to sainthood but his name doesn’t change and to that name we ascribe the whole lot good and evil and that’s a line that you here Jordan Peterson read that line a lot or say that line a lot a line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being so we’ve all got a little piece of darkness in our hearts that you need to watch out for continuing on a little bit on that theme the trouble lies in the way these classic evildoers are pictured they recognize themselves as evildoers and they know their souls are black and they reason I cannot leave unless I do evil so I’ll set my father against my brother I’ll drink the victims sufferings until I’m drunk with them but no that’s not the way it is to do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he is doing is good or else that it’s a well-considered act in conformity with natural law fortunately is in the nature of the human being to speak to seek a justification for his actions ideology ideology that is what gives evil doing it’s long sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination that is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own eyes and other’s eyes so that he won’t hear approaches and Kurt curses but will receive praise and honors that was how agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills by invoking Christianity the conquerors of foreign lands by extolling the grandeur of the motherland the colonizers by civilization the Nazis by race the jacobins early and late by equality Brotherhood and the happiness of future generations thanks to ideology the 20th century was faded to experience evildoing on a scale calculated in the millions this cannot be denied nor passed over nor suppressed how then do we dare insist that evildoers do not exist and who was it

that destroyed these millions without evildoers there would have been no Archipelago so this is again something that we see a lot today when people get on and we see in the past obviously gave all the examples right there I mean the Inquisition we haven’t covered that on the podcast yet but we probably need to because that was a damn nightmare yeah and it was a nightmare with people that were saying hey this is for the good of Christianity yeah and you can go right on down the list when people make do when people do evil they have this ideological oftentimes have this ideological backing behind they’re doing it for this great cause and he gets here and and we I got a book in the in the queue that’s probably gonna get done which we’re gonna approach this thing right here evidently evildoing also has a threshold magnitude yes a human being hesitates and Bob’s back and forth between good and evil all his life he slips falls back clambers up repents things begin to darken again but just so long as the threshold of evildoing is not crossed the possibility of returning remains and he himself is still within reach of our hope but when through the density of evil actions the result either of their own extreme degree of absoluteness of his power he suddenly crosses that threshold he has left humanity behind and without perhaps the possibility of return so there’s some situations where people just go they’re not coming back they’re just gonna do evil mm-hmm that’s the way it’s gonna be and I have a book in the queue right now that we’re probably gonna do that will explore that departure from being able to return continuing on the only soldier in the world who cannot surrender is the soldier of the world’s one and only Red Army that’s what it says in our military statutes you cannot surrender no surrender there is war there is death but there is no surrender what a discovery what it means is go and die we will go on living and if you lose your legs yet manage to return from captivity on crutches we will convict you and he mentions the Leningrad er Ivanov commander of a machine-gun platoon in the Finnish war who lost both legs and was imprisoned incidentally it is very naive to say what for in other words what for why they go on a president no time if government’s been moralist they never imprisoned people and executed them for having done something they imprisoned and executed them to keep them from doing something they imprisoned all those POWs of course not for treason to the motherland because it was absolutely clear even to a fool that only the Vlasov men could be accused of treason which is a group that will talk about them a little bit but there was a a general name class off that actually became a leader of Russian soldiers fighting against Russia alongside the Nazis so he’s saying yeah those guys were traitors against but the the normal POWs the normals ones they weren’t traitors back to the book they were imprisoned all of them to keep them from telling their fellow villagers about Europe but the eye doesn’t see the heart doesn’t grieve for so just because these people had seen what it was like mmm you got to go to prison you know too much you could have acquired a very harmful spirit through living freely among Europeans and if you had not been afraid escaped and continued to fight it meant you were a determined person and thus doubly dangerous in the motherland think about that because you had the courage to fight on and escape and get back that means you’re a courageous person and you’re even more of a threat because you know how they live totally backwards now like I said this guy flies off he he was surrounded and wanted to retreat and got told no and they his army it was basically a lot most of it was wiped out and then he was kind of wandering and escaped somewhat and they joined up where they were captured joined up with some other troops that other Russian troops that were now pissed off right that they didn’t hate you what you eat you wouldn’t allow us to surrender you

wouldn’t allow us to break out he one must allow us to leave so they’re pissed at Stalin and so then they turned and these flies off guys ended up fighting and I’m sure we’ll do a book on these guys at some point but you know he became he became the leader Andrey Vlasov and they fought and they fought hard because they know they knew that they had no and they they weren’t gonna live if they were captured and in fact Solzhenitsyn says when we captured them we shot them and as soon as the first intelligible Russian word came from their mouths this just straight up that’s what we’re doing oh you speak Russian cool that means your blast off man you’re done the term vlasova in our country has the same force as the word sewage we feel we are during our mouths merely by pronouncing it and therefore no endears dares utter a sentence with voise alight in its subject but that is no way to write history now a quarter century later when most of them had perished in camps and those who have survived are living out their lives in the far north i would like to issue a reminder through these pages that this was a phenomenon totally unheard of in Hall the whole history of the world that several hundred thousand young men aged twenty to thirty took up arms against their fatherland as allies of its most evil enemy right seeing this never happened hundreds of thousands of there was hundreds of thousand these flat soft troops hundreds of thousands of them how do you get hundreds of thousands of men who are in the military like okay we get a traitor we get five traitors mmm hundreds of thousands and he says back to the book perhaps there is something to ponder here who was more to blame those youths or the gray fatherland one cannot explain this treason biologically it had to have had a social cause because as the old proverb said well-fed horses don’t rampage then picture yourself a field in which starved neglected crazed horses are rampaging back and forth continuing on there is a simple truth which one can learn only through suffering in war not victories are blessed but defeats governments need victories and the people need defeats victory gives rise to the desire for more victories but after a defeat it is freedom that men desire and usually attain a people needs defeat just as an individual needs suffering and misfortune they compel the deepening of the inner life and generate a spiritual upsurge that’s an interesting concept that’s uh that’s what Jill Rogan mm talking about you need to have some struggle right you need to have something to get after and in social Nets and saying people in a country need that same thing they need that struggle hmm they want that struggle and this is again this is one we spent a little bit of time on with Jordan and this is when when one of social Nets ins friends in the prison Valentin said they were expecting amnesty they were suspecting to be set free and here we go back to because we dried ourselves off Valentin said to me reassuringly intimately well all right we are still young we are going to live a long time yet the main thing is not to make a misstep now we are going to a camp and will not say one word to anything so they won’t plaster new terms of us will work honestly and keep our mouth shut and he really believed in his program that naive little kernel of grain of caught between towns Stalin’s millstones he really had his hopes set on it and I was talking about amnesty one wanted to agree with him to serve out the term Cosley and then expunged from one’s head what one had lived through but I had begun to sense a truth inside myself if in order to live it is necessary not to live then once it’s off then what is it all for and of course Jordan and I got in the big long discussion about playing the game and yeah I mean I think we both agreed that there’s times where you have

to play the game a little bit yeah and if you don’t well you’ll end up in a worse position so we started talking a little bit about these kangaroo courts that went on and here’s one of the judges makes the statement we are not guided by laws but by a revolutionary conscience so what does that mean that means we just make up whatever the hell we want to make up yeah whenever we’re gonna make up that’s what we’re gonna do and in in this book book part one of volume one he spends a lot of time talking about these multiple cases he goes through basically it’s like court dramas and he spells them out pretty good and there’s like the dialogue back and forth between the accuser and and the defendants and you know the uproar from the crowd and it’s it’s like a lot it’s like multiple court dramas one of them the Moscow Church trial April 26 to May 7 1922 there were 17 defendants including arch priests and laymen accused of disseminating the patriarchs Proclamation the charge was more important than the question of surrendering or not surrendering Church valuables and the presiding judge says do you consider the state’s law obligatory or not and the patriarch says yes I recognize them to the extent that they do not contradicts contradict the rules of PIAT piety comrade back the presiding judge was astounded which you know the last analysis is more important to you the laws of the church or the point of view of the so viet government again this is all spelled out but it ends up May 7th the sentence was pronounced of the 17 defendants 11 were to be shot another massive show trial against the engineers that were again this goes back the idea that they were considered wreckers and they had these massive show trials and here were some of the results of the show trials where they where they sentence these guys to massive prison terms or sentence him to death thus it was attained with 8 horse traction all the goals of the trial one all the shortages in the country including famine called lack of clothing chaos and obvious stupidities were all blamed on the engineer wreckers too the people were terrified by the threat of imminent intervention from abroad and were therefore prepared for new sacrifices three leftist circles in the West were warned of the intrigues of their governments and for the Solidarity of the engineers was destroyed all the intelligentsia was given a good scare and left divided within itself every one of these show trials well if it wasn’t for the fact that people were being imprisoned or executed after the show trials it would be a lot of them they seemed like kangaroo courts they seemed comical when you read him next chapter called the supreme measure which is about capital punishment capital punishment has an up and down history in Russia in the 20 central provinces of Russia in a period of 16 months from June 1918 to October 1919 more than 6,000 persons were shot which is to say more than 1000 per month the Revolution had hastened to rename everything so that everything would seem new thus the death penalty was rechristened as the supreme measure no longer a punishment but a means of social defense so they’re executing a lot of people of course they’re calling it the supreme measure and they refer to as social defense like we’re just a hey we’re just defending ourselves right back to the book and what kind of evildoers were these condemned mens where did so many plotters and troublemakers come from among them for example or six collective farmers who were guilty of the following crime after they had finished mowing the collective farm along with their own hands they had gone back and mowed a second time along the hum –ax to get a little hay for their own cows the all-russian

Central Executive Committee refused to pardon all six of these peasants and sentence and the sentence of execution was carried out even if Stalin had killed no others I believe he deserved to be drawn and quartered just for the lies lives of those six peasants so there you go you already harvested all the grain you can and then you go out you do another run to get a little bit hay for your own cows and they kill you during those two years of 1937 and 1938 1/2 million political prisoners had been shot throughout the Soviet Union and 480,000 habitual thieves in addition so we’re talking execution on just a mass scale that’s two years a million just rattled off I mean a million back to the book and almost always a person obediently allows himself to be killed why is it that the death penalty has such a hypnotic effect those pardoned recall hardly anyone in their cell who offered any resistance does hope lend strength or doesn’t weaken a man that’s a good question isn’t it does hope lend strength or does it weaken a man you had a talk that I witnessed recently and you mentioned this something you just sort of mentioned for the first time that I heard where you were talking about Hell week when you said that they’d say hey you know you don’t get much sleep right oh yeah and they say okay now we’re gonna give you guys a break you know six hours sleep yeah yeah no they’d say something like hey look your hell week has been extra hard and we went too hard on you by accident and the water was colder than normal yeah so what we’re gonna do is we’re going to give you guys we don’t normally do this we’re gonna give you guys an eight hour recovery period so go go put on warm clothes you know you’re gonna go in the barracks you’re not gonna go in the tents you’re gonna go in your barracks put on put on your dry clothes and get in your beds and you guys will wake you up in eight hours yeah but we need to do a little training pause right now yeah and then and then they put you in then they do it and then they put you in there and you can all draw and they put you on your bed in the sound and then 20 minutes later they come in with machine guns and they wake you up and say go get the surf again and they do and that’s one of the things that gets a lot of people to quit yeah there’s a lot of people to quit right so that’s kind of the point where yeah the hope can jam you up oh yeah we’re that hope you know like oh I can’t believe and then when it’s taken away from you real quick or something like that oh yeah well this is a great question because think if okay if you’re in a situation where you could live or die right there’s times where hey if I’m gonna die it makes me stronger like hey I’m gonna go out horror ever yeah exactly right but also like if I can hope I can live then that can make you like a fucking fight a little bit longer I hope of survival yeah so this hope lend strength or does it weaken abandon there’s different phases where it does different things to you yeah depends on what kind of strength – I feel like yeah I don’t know hope of what – yeah like life is different life and death cuz like you know death that’s the end of everything that’s like you know but like yeah but think about this situation you’re this is talking about death like you’re gonna be executed so let me ask you this so you’re gonna be executed but there’s if there’s a little bit of hope that oh maybe the sentence will get overturned yeah or maybe I’ll get pushed down the road or maybe they’ll do an amnesty and I’ll get out that’s hope right yeah so that might weaken you right because if you’re like look I’m getting executed and I don’t care yeah and you know what when that guard comes in here it’s something some of my buddies and we’re gonna get after it oh yeah right so that’s gonna make you stronger so hope might not necessarily be a good thing I mean you know if you ever encountered someone that I had no hope they can be very scary individuals because they don’t care if they live or die they’re not gonna leave I can’t lose yes nothing to lose nothing to lose you ever see a sports game where it could go like like a team gets a good lead and then they just start taking risks and they start dominating right yeah I mean it can happen where they get start getting cocky yeah but like you can see a sports game where easy it happens in fights it happens in MMA fights the I start getting the upper hand in jiu-jitsu I started getting the upper hand I take a little bit more risk but

the risk as long as the risk payoff that Nelson and your if you and I are oh and I take a little risk I grab for the takedown yeah right I’m feeling cocky go for the takedown yeah I get the takedown right now all of a sudden your your your hope those down yeah right and mine’s going up even more and more yeah but if you’re really tired and the rounds almost over and you already lost and now you’re just like well I got no hope I’m just gonna try for an arm lock you might get it yeah yeah that’s what it’s gonna say – it’s like men it’s on both sides so it just depends both really the answer is well because like look MMA analogy good one my opinion to wear let’s say I’m down as a football team as a whatever you start throwing Hail Marys doing that kind of stuff you know it’s like you have kind of less hope we’re gonna lose anyway nothing to lose situation so it does give you strength in that way but at the same time if you’re way ahead yeah I can pick my risk I’ll put my second string guys in there give them some reps whatever cuz if you know if the wrist does it pay off or whatever we’re still ahead so we’re you know man I don’t know yeah it just depends you know what you do I think the thing is here you got to pay attention as a human to what the hope is doing to you right yeah this is a good lesson learned – what is the hope dude because it happens in your life – right like maybe you’re like at a job and you’re like well I might get that promotion so I’m just gonna stick it out yeah stick it out a little bit longer oh yeah and then but whereas if you’re like hey you’re not getting promoted you back alright you know I’m gonna do is I’m gonna get my resume together I’m gonna get my act together and I’ll put that work if you have hope it makes you a little weaker yeah yeah so you got to pay attention to it but it could make you stronger though you’d be like oh I might get the promotion so I’m gonna so I’m gonna work hard right saying yeah you got paid attention was doing to you that’s what you got to do hope isn’t always good it’s not bad it’s not good yeah you’re all you got to monitor your hope don’t get your hopes up yeah monitor you hope there you go that continues on here we go if the condemned men in every cell had ganged up on the executioner’s as they came in and choked them wouldn’t this have ended executioner’s sooner than the appeals to the all-russian Central Executive Committee when one is already on the edge of the grave why not resist but wasn’t everything for doomed anyway from the moment of arrest yet all the arrested crawled along the path of Hope on their knees as if their legs had been amputated monitor your hope he describes sort of death row in one of the prisons there were four death cells in this prison in the same corridor as the juvenile cells and the hospital cells the death cells had two doors the customary wooden door with a peephole and door made of iron grading each door had two locks and one jailer had the block supervisor each had a key one jailer and if the block supervisor each had a key to a different one so the doors could only be opened by the two together cell 43 was on the other side of a wall of the interrogators office and at night while the condemned men were waiting to be executed their ears were tormented by the screams of prisoners being tortured talks about the idea of hunger strikes which they did some hunger strikes along the way from our experience in the past and our literature of the past we have derived a naive faith in the power of a hunger strike but the hunger strike is purely a moral weapon it presupposes that the jailor has not entirely lost his conscience or that the jailer is afraid of public opinion only in such circumstances can it be effective so yeah the Soviet prison didn’t care yeah say whatever you want we control the press yeah oh and by the way you think I’m gonna feel guilty that you’re starving no I’m not ever oh and by the way if I do feel like I want to make you live guess what they did forced artificial feeding this method was adapted without any question from the experience with wild animals in captivity artificial feeding has much in common with rape and that’s what it really is for big men hurl themselves on one weak being and deprive ‘it of its one interdiction they only need to do it

once and what happens to it next is not important the element of rape in here’s in the violation of the victims of will it’s not going to be the way you want it but the bit but the way I want it lie down and submit they pry open the mouth with a flat disk then broaden the crack between the jaw and insert a tube swallow it and if you don’t swallow it they shove it down farther anyway and then pour liquefied food right down the esophagus and then they massage the stomach to prevent the prisoner from resorting to vomiting the sensation is one of being morally defiled and this is it’s the it’s a closing of this part of the book we no longer know the answer to the question is the soul of a person in the new type prison in the special-purpose prison purified or does it perish once and for all if the first thing you see each and every morning is the eyes of your cellmate who is gone insane how then shall you save yourself during the coming day and like I said that’s I’ll take that as a spot to close out that part one of this book about the gulag and I think that is a question that we can ask ourselves a lot in our current world but how can we save ourselves every day when you look around at the world when it looks sometimes like the world is going insane when people are going crazy you have to kind of work to save yourself every day you have to pull yourself back into sanity and back onto the path and not allow yourself to become a prisoner of your own personal gulag and these gulags these Soviet gulags if you want to build your own personal gulag in your life you do it the same way that the Soviets did it you do it with lies lies on top of lies when the Soviets lied on top of lies to build these gulags and in your life if you lie to yourself if you allow that to happen and you put lies on top of lies you will build yourself your own personal gulag so don’t allow it don’t lie to yourself and instead keep yourself out of that prison and keep yourself free by telling yourself the truth and I think that’s all I’ve got for tonight and I know echo you’ve got some ways that we can kind of help keep ourselves free by staying on the path sure on top of telling the truth on top of telling the truth which is yeah kind of the key right the key element it’s a key element for sure I’m still kind of tripping on the hope thing you know if that gives you strength or or takes it from you right that’s how you put it or that’s how we put it right it takes it from you I was I was talking to Dakota yeah the other night and we

were talking about after the big event you know where he lost his team and all that and we just talked a little bit more detail about if you remember in the book a few days later he goes on another operation that’s just as crazy hmm or maybe not just as crazy but it’s like it’s really bad yeah and he was doing some definitely some some crazy things and putting what’s the military term that we say he was going above and beyond the call of duty and putting himself at great risk hmm and I said to him you know we’re kind of like lap you know the code is so good to go and so awesome and we were just like laughing and I was like bro you didn’t I mean at that point I’m like you just you know you lost your whole team I go you didn’t care if you lived or died he goes not even not at all yeah and so in that situation like he had no hope at that moment in time right and guess what he did whatever he had to do yeah he’s like oh I got to go save the I gotta go run across the open field where there’s machine-gun fire come cool I’ll go oh wait I knew dude again I’ll go again all I need to do it again I’ll go again yeah cuz he didn’t have hope and in fact that he didn’t have hope gave him strength at that moment yeah you know at that moment but if you talk to him now it’s reversed he’s got his kids got his little daughters you know what I mean he’s got like hope for the future yeah and that’s what makes me strong right now so it keeps him strong yeah so I mean what’s the formula right I mean it’s the formula is monitor your home is it any depends on who you are right because they consider yourself let’s say all hope is lost you know I got a you know go across do all these crazy things above and beyond I could be if I have a different attitude I could be like why like why fight it kind of thing let death impending doom you know just kind of take its course kind of thing right I mean could yeah that could be regard for his own safety that’s the that’s the phrase I was looking for yeah it’s a complete disregard for his own safety yeah but that’s like a specific like approach you know that’s it like a different attitude you know like some people they’ll be like oh I’m gonna you know like I’m I’m doomed anyway so I fight it and then yeah right like I’m doing so so I’m gonna just search screen for the points and check this out you can also be like I hope I can make it out of here so what I’m gonna do is I’m just gonna hide right here and do anything yeah right so that’s the same dislike the reverse is the reverse so it’s like and then if if you’re in a bad situation and you’re like well I hope I can make it I’ve got hope that I can live through this situation so I’m just gonna get down I’m just gonna hide gonna get behind this little you know rock outcropping and hope this goes away right hope they don’t see me oh you don’t hope hope hope yeah and that’s the example of the whole I guess what happens when you do that the enemy maneuvers on you and you get killed whereas if you go like you know what I’m going out I have no hope I’m gonna attack but by the way the enemy who’s hoping they can take you and hoping that you’re gonna stay there when you when you do something that they didn’t hope for that’s gonna smack them in the face yeah but like if but then on the reverse side of that right so you have a different attitude even though you have hope right if all is lost do you think but I have this little shred of hope so I’m just gonna go throw a Hail Mary yeah that’s hope yeah rather than just like cowering in the corner and dying or whatever but you wouldn’t be throwing a Hail Mary unless that was the only way like that was their only hope shred it was your only don’t say like if you that’s what I’m saying like if you have two different approaches you know monitor your hope at the end of the day that’s how you got a monitor your home I got to make sure that what cuz there’s you got to be careful too because sometimes you know if you have no hope right if you out well I have no hope so I’m just good do that right let’s say you’re in a bad situation a combat situation hey I got no hope so I’m just gonna lay here and like I guess that’s right you were saying yeah oh yeah I got no hope so I was gonna lay here yeah instead of hey I got no hope so I’m just gonna go out in a blaze of glory let’s get psyched yeah yeah yeah so if you monitor it you go wait a second I have no hope okay I’m gonna at least go out hard I’m gonna go get some at a minimum right gonna take some people with me bad guys yeah save some of my good guys if I can do that yeah that’s good as opposed to have no hope we’re doomed yeah monitor your home remember that remember of Shawshank Redemption yes I have seen that movie said that where he was like hey they got red Morgan Freeman he’s saying hey don’t be careful with

that whole thing it’ll drive you insane or something like that like if you hope you’ll get out or you hope you’re gonna get pardoned or whatever this situation was so it’s like yeah if you hope you’ll get pardoned and you hold on to that hope but you get let down it’ll create you know it’ll drive you insane and if you don’t have hoping that this do what he’s implying if you don’t have hope he just said basically accept your imprisonment so you can focus on or concentrate on living prison life you know the way it needs to be lived hmm do the best you can there yeah like don’t have these hope to the outside cuz it’ll make you crazy that could be decent advice in a situation like that yeah yeah you say monitor your hope because right if you have no hope you could be like well I’m just gonna just gonna myself yeah exactly right yeah no you gotta monitor it in the prison and you got to make sure that you’re not putting yourself in a personal prison yeah which are which that to me this idea if you think about the bad situations in your life most of them are predicated on you lying to yourself about something yeah yeah your everyday ones for sure yeah right yeah it’s weird every time you like you say something like that Holly’s trying to think of some rebuttal you know it’s weird I feel myself doing that but yeah no you’re right yeah I think so that you just tell these little lies yeah lies on top of lies yeah and in words I what I think what happens with lies on top of lies is they become easier and easier to believe oh yeah like once you believe one of your own lies then you believe three then you believe ten then you believe 100 yeah you know the feeling is the feeling is you lie to yourself right and or you could a lot of times lying to yourself isn’t like hey I’m tall when you’re not taught it’s not that it’s like it’s more of a not admitting certain things that’s more what it is you know like you saw how you guys say you say look take a good hard look at yourself in here right don’t and then don’t lie to yourself right so it’s usually when you light yourself in the mirror it’s like well I won’t admit that I won’t I won’t admit that to myself that I need this or it yeah should get rid of this or whatever that’s how the light comes you know it’s lie by omission I think yeah the more you do it yeah but then you and then you live to see another day oh it’s a miracle so it must kind to be true it must not be that big of a deal my whatever you know my doughnuts that I eat every morning for breakfast must not be I’m still here those wise yeah so it’s so no one’s bringing it up no one’s bringing it up to me kind of things so it’s like it’s not really it’s not like pulling at me that much so it gets easier and easier to kind of it’s almost like sweeping it under the rug kind of thing you know meanwhile it’s festering in festering oh she got to dock your cholesterol so high or whatever I’m saying that subtle Jim you know don’t lie to yourself you know what else is a prison being on bottom stuck in your side control in jujitsu to prison so and here’s the weird thing when you wouldn’t he said that I I did think of this where if I have and it’s I don’t even know if I’d call it hope like if I want to be out like if I want to escape not that I want to do the escape or take escape type actions it’s just I don’t want to be there all like it way less like a won’t I won’t be able to deal with it as much as if I say okay I’m here it’s like accepting that I’m longer inside control you know and I have to take action here my hope is here not outside there’s a you you have to accept the situation that you’re in yes can’t lie to yourself can’t little prison anyway I think that’s what Morgan Freeman was talking about by the way nonetheless speaking side control that’s jiu-jitsu speaking of jiu-jitsu you’re gonna need a key if you’re doing jiu-jitsu indeed yeah we’re on the path we’re talking about the path right now right support yourself in this way by saying in the path starting jiu-jitsu if you haven’t already a lot of people starting to get a lot more people yeah sorry jiu-jitsu zits are getting popular very popular and for a good reason to I mean shoot so when you get Agee and rash guard get or Jinky no question oh you don’t agree with me that’s what I thought anyway good origin main calm yeah origin main calm its look I guess so what the look that I was giving you is sort of the fact that we just glossing over the fact that these guys are made a hundred percent in America yeah would you even on phone back yeah yeah maybe should talk about well last time you did you talked about the looms and all that stuff today you’re just like hey the best case which I guess that’s cool yeah they are they are all is true for sure 100% yeah and you know

what I’m just about to say this but I remembered that I do talk about this all the time on air and off air that it is cool it kind of like how Pete guys how they brought back like the actual making of the ghee for example yeah like that’s a thing now it’s like cool now yeah no one cared about how your G was stitched and like no one cared about that stuff even if they knew the pearl competitions last time I was Aris I got like legit explanation of things from Pete Pete and I were just like it’s 10 o’clock at night we’ve been working for 8 days straight and living in words in there kitten and I’m asking pointed questions about stuff mm-hmm about how this thing gets you know what I mean yes I want to understand it yeah there’s a lot of those guys I had to learn a lot of stuff bro you can’t even if it’s I think it’s been five years six years the amount of information that had to be learned yeah from not from no from nothing from none from trial-and-error funny s Pete that kind stuff like you can’t exhaust Pete oh yeah you see the twinkle in his eye yeah he wants to explain it is a house concerned I was boring you guys stay off to that for sure but yeah or Jinky 100% or generous guard 100% supplements too by the way you know and I was not I wouldn’t call myself anti supplement not gonna say that but I wasn’t into supplements that much before now I am because you know when you come across the one that actually works that’s the thing you know how the planning people there are plenty supplements it’s they sorta rely maybe not hundred percent mmm maybe hundred percent but they rely on the placebo effect so when you have supplements like these that actually work you become a supplement person yeah so if you want them got joint warfare for your joints obviously krill oil for your life like eating your joints join couldn’t your just overall health discipline when you got to get that workout and there’s discipline drink and there’s discipline go pills go and then it was mocha you get some kind of mocha scenario going on yes technically is warrior kid milk last night we go to okay there’s this light show Christmas lights show you know the you know certain neighborhoods they’ll have I guess this one is like super faint or like shoot tracers it’s called the I think Bilardo I think it’s called Bilardo light show it’s like you know Christmas lights this house they do a thing it has a whole show people you know so we go and you know my wife she likes the Christmas spirit get on cozy right it’s kind of colder now California cool Iowa no friends main yeah no offense but California cold will say you can see your breath that’s something you’re talking 49 degrees so like in in like Michigan or Minnesota it’s 54 below in Montana it’s 54 below zero so anyways a little bit different sure but still but for the Charles family a little chilly according to my wife it warranted maybe a hot chocolate scenario so look this is what I’m going to driver it’s Pentacles mouse who drive around we look at all the nice light so we’ll drink our hot chocolate in the car would bring the kid that’d be fun we can get out so everyone busting out the hot chocolate of course what what do you think my hot chocolate well yeah I know what that’s the warrior kid Moke hot chocolate I even put some whipped cream on oh yeah it was nice actually was surprisingly nice is what I was this is why usually I drink the regular milk under different circumstances this is like boom milkshake you know but do you get the kid consider this consider where I was I had two two kids and one wife always regular hot chocolate may or may not have had marshmallows in it either way regular hot chocolate and me I’m with okay I’m gonna stick with a protein or a kiss so you didn’t get your kids didn’t have native me that’s that’s my stuff here’s the thing kids yeah yeah I was gonna but we’re kinda hurry so and I made the like the game time laughs it was already made I’m not gonna be like hey either way actually that’s a good point next time 100% unless I heat it up tastes the same yeah literally tasty this is freaking awesome chocolate so anyways that’s warrior kid mulk you got strawberry and chocolate and then for I had a guy at the gym um the other day and he was using I’m drinking some oak right now and I was like oh cool I was like anybody had it enough like one of those metal water bought like a water bottle looking thing yeah I go what did you mix

it with needs that water and I go bro you got to gotta get milk in there yeah and he goes really and I go yeah I go almond milk coconut milk what other kind of milks are there almond milk I said just get some acid or whole milk just milk or skim milk whatever I saw him yesterday he’s it bro yeah and I’m like he was no I’m drinking it all the time and I know yeah I know and he was actually telling me he liked it just as is with water which I can’t I can’t I’m not gonna make that claim because I don’t believe it right I’m not saying like hey if you drink with water it’s gonna be great if you drink with water it’s okay it’s like it’s like I said before drink with water it’s like a ham sandwich like it’s not if you drink it with milk it’s like prime rib yeah like a rib eye sure I know what he was doing I know I know his exact scenario I wasn’t even there I don’t even know you’re talking to me he’s used to like drinking protein drink shakes in the shaker you know after Liv mixed someone just throw it in with water whatever that’s what you force it down yeah to open it with it open your mouth with it yes is gamma tube down your esophagus to get your protein you don’t need to do that with milk there’s no forced feeding but that’s what I’m saying so now he mixed it same deal same routine but now we got the milk tastes better cool puts it in oh yeah you’re right okay where’s Jocko let me find them you know kind of thing and you’re like bro you’re not even on the more you are in the milk train fully but man you could be up here in first class cool man either way Jess get on it get all this stuff or gin man calm also we have a store we have a storm Jacko’s door dot-com this is where you can get more rash guards for jujitsu approved by the way 100% approve this is more you know representing the path directly win those rash guards shirts on there it has beanies ah hoodies legit hoodies and yeah go to Jocko store calm yep also chuckle white tea which yes here’s a thing is funny enough my wife is she’s always there chuckle white tea train this is not but if there was she would be the engineer until even say I’m about to get after it right before she yeah I guess this is why you can’t create viral marketing right you can’t be like hey let’s come up with a viral thing for a jakka whitey hey get on the jock a white tea train like that doesn’t sure yeah where’s mulch a hundred percent and well the more treats shirt is just formulated itself that’s what I mean yeah it just it pre-existed in some onion universe and then when it arrived here it was like choo-choo get on anyway Chuck wait T yes deadlift eight thousand pounds whatever I’ve been dead lifting eight thousand pounds for a long time already so that is less exciting than it’s gonna be for the you know the people who just start just saying but yeah sure somebody has a good deadlift sixteen hundred pounds if you if you drink two cans oh yeah to say this but uh no doesn’t work that way you know exactly exactly right nonetheless in cans and in witty call it dry tea yeah just prefer the cans personally but the dredge is good too for sure available on Amazon and at the chocolate store right yes sir calm yeah cool okay everywhere just go online danke wait tea boom right in your mailbox also subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already on Google and wherever play wherever you get pie hey check out the warrior kid podcast if you got kids or even if you don’t have kids if you know kids get in the warrior kid podcast I have a couple more episodes coming out this week of the warrior kid podcast so you can get some of that also you can get that warrior kids so from Irish Oaks ranch made by an actual warrior kid named Aiden who makes it with goat milk mmm so if you want to get some soap so you can follow his motto which is stay clean and then YouTube subscribe to youtube if you want to see what Echo Charles looks like sure if you want to see what a guest looks like if you want to see the look on echos face when I say something that he doesn’t agree with or if you want to see the look on my face when he says something that was one of the funniest outtakes was you talking mhm and then you’d but you’re just showing my face yeah just like so bored and annoyed and just there’s a few those there’s one where I was talking about justifying like not doing squats it was really

you’re talking about so I’m gonna a lien thing you know you just shown my face and I’m just looking at me like like please get the hint that my face right now means stop but you were actually really nice about that I’m generally nice yeah there’s no I’m a pretty nice person well sometimes you take advantage of that with stories that impinge on my whole situation anyway psychological warfare which that’s what that is by the way when you’re just looking at me not yawning nothing like that just looking like it’s psychological or it’s psychological communication anyway the real psychological warfare is an album with tracks of Jocko on each track telling you how to overcome your moments of weakness that may may creep into your whole scenario in life when you’re on the path you can get that on itunes google play and be three platforms or whatever you know what I said we were gonna get psychological warfare two out by Christmas not gonna happen little delay if you still have some requests of an area of weakness and you want us to make a psychological warfare track so you can crush and destroy that weakness mm-hmm then just let us know the you know the usual means yes yeah online cool yeah all your excuses there lies by the way that’s the working title also vary up your work though I was gonna do a video today a workout video of yourself yep cool and I was gonna do a kettlebell typical kettlebells scenario and I was just gonna start doing curls with it but but I decided against it because it’s kind of disrespectful it’s got a good idea you should do a workout video where you just have a barbell kettlebell dumbbell a sandbag and everything you just disrespectful anyway my point there being what it reminded me of of it is that the crew it was gonna be like really good like produced video uh-huh not necessarily with a good camera nothing like that but just like I’m just gonna frame it good and it was gonna be using the on it kettlebell the Cyclops whatever nonetheless decided against it because did gonna be kind of disrespectful because that’s not what kettlebells for obviously but if you do get kettlebells even if it’s funny it’s still disrespectful yeah that’s what it felt like at the time but no you’re probably right yeah at the time I think yeah all right yes anyway my point is even though it’s a little bit beside the point it reminded me of it the point is my new point is when you want to vary up your workout curls or otherwise some people they don’t even do curls I used to do curls you see do curls – don’t act like you don’t know I do you go boom get your stuff from on it calm slash Jocko by the way kettle bells rings these are things that not only do I do pretty much every workout pretty much but this is these are ones that I strongly recommend to incorporate rings and this last 15 ton rings by the way push-ups pull-ups and the planks whatever those dips yeah I don’t do them as much but the plain for sure I don’t do dips not on the Rings no why I don’t know I just don’t regret he’s doing on the bar nonetheless good job these are those a lot of heat right there for no dips on the Rings anyway get them out on it good stuff on there Barry up the workout incorporate new things in the workout yeah man it’s good Mikey and the Dragons is out it is in stock fully good I’m sorry that it took a little eight everyone should have gotten it buyer should get it by Christmas if you ordered it reasonably before Christmas you should have it because we we made it we did it everyone that ordered it we got an Amazon fulfilled so appreciate everyone that ordered it it is now fully in stock we should not run out again it’s Emily if you have Amazon Prime that’s like two days right yeah yeah I don’t know I don’t know when more you’re yeah I don’t know when they’re cut off time is for Amazon to get it shipped in time but yeah those are in the distribution centers around the country with Amazon Prime right now so if you haven’t gotten my key in the Dragons for every kid that you know then you can get it done right now we got a lot of copies ready to roll so get it for your kids get it for your neighbors kids get it for your library whatever you can also get the way of the warrior kid books where the worker kid and marks mission if you want your kids or kids you know to actually have a good life this is a great way to start them off actually having a good life yes another this is a holiday gift if there ever one was one discipline equals freedom feel better I need to post that video actually I’ll post that video repost all reverence for the book yeah yeah yeah get that video posted but yeah because that’s a good gift again for anyone that needs to be first if you want to get the audio version of that

it’s not on audible it’s on iTunes Amazon music google play etc extreme ownership of course dichotomy leadership possibly better than extreme ownership I’ve gotten like four last four people I talked to I was like possibly and they’re like no it’s definitely better and that’s kind of weird right yes that yeah well you go flare up there you know what I mean maybe but I don’t really get that from what you just said right now I I here’s my hypothesis the people who are saying that dichotomy leadership is better than extreme ownership better than extreme ownership or people who read extreme ownership and then we’re like yeah you know hell yeah I’m gonna extreme ownership and then they go in and they’re like okay it’s like you know I made the analogy of the dance major league right the pitcher he had all this power but he never control dichotomy leadership comes in gives him that control that they wish that they had yeah they didn’t even know they didn’t have it they didn’t know they didn’t have it they thought extra medieval thing a seal buddy of mine came over to my house the other day and he brought 20 copies of extreme ownership his wife wanted to give his giving of them to her team in her company and he goes yeah you know I’m giving you my wife really wants give him and she’s read it she loves it and then he goes but she’s kind of a bull in a china shop yes and I was like okay cool so guess what I did I was like hey let me give a little song for your Christmas present and give her a little Christmas present you know I’m getting a little something called dichotomy a leadership because that’s the situation you’re talking about you know what they’ll think perfect situation like you think I’m gonna go take ownership or and it’s like well or even like everyone’s gonna read this book a dichotomy leadership let’s make sure we’re balanced yeah actually though you know what you know what I just thought of right now I got it I gotta take it back maybe maybe not maybe I’m right maybe I’m not with that whole analogy but you know what though what’s more important power or about or or or what do you call accuracy or whatever right because it’s kind of the same thing extreme ownership is like oh here’s what you do full speed this is what you do and then the dichotomy is kind of the control element what’s more important control or speed zoom same controller part yes arguably control they’re both important I think so – yeah at the end of the day that’s that’s the scenario though well you won’t have you won’t have anything to balance if you don’t understand the fundamental principles combat let’s shoot right so yeah that’s just the way it’s gotta be yeah uh yeah so get those books good Christmas presents I’m the worst gift giver you’re you let me think about if I get you a gift which is not likely yeah it’ll be great but it’s a slim chance you’re getting one how many gifts have you gotten from me to what I give you well one actually attempting I don’t think was from you you gave me a copy of the discipline equals freedom Field Manual signed like on your own like it wasn’t like hey give me you or like hey you know hey bruh yes for you go okay it was cool what else nice it’s cool cuz I’ve written six books I’m giving you one 20% you gave my daughter one that’s your talk yes exactly right not me way different no you gave me something I think it was like a shirt or something that I found out like later that day that it wasn’t from you so you get one gift yeah thanks for that by the way check also we get a salon front that’s my leadership consultancy and what we do is go into companies and solve problems through leadership go to echelon front comm if you want to work with me and my team which is life Babb and JP Danelle Dave Burke Flynn Cochran Mike Sorelli and Mike bimah also we got the muster coming up it is live for registration right now Chicago Denver and Sydney Australia Kota extreme ownership calm right now if you want to come they’ve all sold out this one has got actually week we open registration it’s already like these are gonna sell out a lot faster yeah whatever reason yeah interesting how your we’re going to Australia yeah look cuz a lot of people were saying you know you yes for some reason when I went to Brisbane Australia yeah and I did a book signing in Brisbane dryly and I announce it on like a Wednesday or a Thursday and that books any weight on Friday and I showed up and there was hundreds and hundreds of people there yeah I was super stoked about that and it showed that there was a lot of people that were supporting and of course we got EF overwatch which is us connecting proven leaders from spec

ops and combat aviation communities with companies in the civilian sector that need experienced leaders to step up and lead inside their organizations to go to EF overwatch and fill out the information there either as a talent seeker or a career seeker we’re waiting to link you guys up you know speaking of events mm-hmm we are doing a live event we are doing a live event New York City January 9th details to be announced but if you want to come it’s in a theater and we’re gonna record a podcast live in the theater and then we’re gonna do QA live I think or maybe I’ll send like a group yeah like the old school let’s go have multiple half-and-half that’s what we’re gonna do something like that anyways calendar yourself January 9th New York City if you’re in that area or you want to come hang out come and get some we will see you there and if you want to link up with us virtually we are pretty readily available on the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and on Facebook kiba echo is that echo Charles and I am at Jocko will link and thanks to all the military personnel out there that are providing us with this way of life and you can see how bad life can get when you read a book like The Gulag Archipelago also thanks to police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs correctional officers Border Patrol and all first responders for protecting this way of life that we have here at home and to everyone else out there just remember that this nightmare of the gulags started when people can’t get on a large scale and on a small scale don’t let that happen on a large scale and don’t let it happen to you resist that whole opening chapter about not resisting don’t let that happen resist resist the weakness resist the lies resist the things in your life that will turn you into a prisoner and into a slave and you do that by going out there every day and getting after it and until next time this is echo and Jocko out

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