>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C [ Applause ] >> John Van Oudenaren: Secretary Mineta, Senator Simpson, Members of Congress, Acting Librarian of Congress Mao, Ms. Compton, distinguished guests, good evening And aloha to the students and faculty of the University of Hawaii, who are watching via live stream on the university campus and at the Japanese Cultural Center of Hawaii And also a special greeting the Aloha Boy Scout Council On behalf of the Library of Congress it is my pleasure to welcome you to this evening as we continue a wonderful five-year collaboration with the Daniel K. Inouye Institute to commemorate the life, legacy, and values of the late Senator Daniel Inouye Before we commence the program, I ask you to take a moment and silence your mobile phones and electronic devices so that they do not interfere with our speakers I’ll also make you aware that this event is being recorded for future placement on the Library’s website I’ll take a few minutes to introduce the program and the speakers, and then we’ll turn it over to the substantive discussion Daniel K. Inouye was a lionesque figure in Washington and in his home state of Hawaii Born September 7th, 1924 in Honolulu, Inouye graduated from high school not six months after the United States entered into war against Japan Coming out of the University of Hawaii as a premed student, Inouye volunteered and was the youngest member of the famous 442nd regiment of the US Army — a unit of Japanese-American soldiers who fought gallantly in the European theatre of operations On April 21st, 1945 Inouye was wounded in battle and lost his right arm He returned home with a Distinguished Service Cross, Bronze Star Medal, two Purple Hearts, and 12 other medals and citations From there Inouye graduated college and law school and entered into public service Elected into the territorial House of Representatives when Hawaii became the nation’s 50th state, Inouye became Hawaii’s first representative to the US House, followed by his election to the US Senate as America’s first Japanese-American senator In his near half a century in Washington Inouye served as a member of the Senate Watergate Committee, chairman of the Senate Iran-Contra Committee, and long-time member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, which he chaired from 2009 to 2012 Inouye passed away on December 17th, 2012 He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his military service and was posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, becoming the first senator to receive both the Medal of Freedom and the Medal of Honor Tonight the John W. Kluge Center at the Library of Congress and the Daniel K. Inouye Institute present the second in a five-year distinguished lecture series to commemorate Daniel Inouye’s commitment to bipartisanship, moral courage, public service, and civic engagement Our first lecture last year featured Madeleine Albright and Colin Powell and addressed bipartisanship and the US engagement with the world around us, exploring how leaders have cast aside political differences at home in order to act in the best interests of the nation abroad and how they might do so in the future This evening our speakers will consider the delicate balance between protecting civil liberties and safeguarding national security They will consider historical precedence from World War II and explore some of the issues created in the wake of the events of 9/11 by the passage of the Patriot Act The event is made possible by a generous donation from the Daniel K. Inouye Institute

And we are privileged this evening to have the senator’s widow and the driving force behind his legacy, Mrs. Irene Inouye, in attendance I ask you to please join me in recognizing her [ Applause ] >> John Van Oudenaren: I now would like to introduce our distinguished panelists who tonight will address the protection of national security and civil liberties Throughout his career, the honorable Norman Y. Mineta served as US Secretary of Transportation, US Secretary of Commerce, and as a member of Congress In 1942 when he was ten years old, Secretary Mineta and his family were among the 120,000 Americans of Japanese ancestry forced from their homes and into internment camps by the US government following the attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan They would remain interned for the duration of World War II Secretary Mineta and his family are interned in a camp near Cody, Wyoming It was there that Mineta, a Boy Scout, met Al Simpson, who visited the camp with his local Boy Scout troop This marked the beginning of a life-long friendship Returning to his hometown of San Jose, California in 1945, he graduated from the University of California at Berkeley and served as a US Army intelligence officer during the Korean conflict In 1967 he became the first Asian Pacific-American member of the San Jose City Council, becoming the city’s vice-mayor in 1968 In 1974 he was elected to the US Congress where he served for 20 years Throughout that time, Mineta was a constant advocate in the area of civil rights He founded and served as the first chairman of the Congressional Asian Pacific-American Caucus He served as the principal authorize and driving force behind what became the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which officially apologized to Americans of Japanese ancestry for the internment In 2000, President Bill Clinton appointed Mineta Secretary of Commerce, making him the first Asian Pacific-American cabinet secretary In 2001, President George W Bush appointed Mineta Secretary of Transportation where he served until 2006 — one of the very few Americans to have served in the cabinet of presidents from two parties Following the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001, Mineta guided the creation of the Transportation Security Administration, an agency with more than 65,000 employees, marking the largest mobilization of a new federal agency since World War II Alan K. Simpson served in the United States Senate as a member of the Republican Party In addition to his public service, Simpson taught at the Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard’s University Kennedy’s School of Government and served for two years as the director of the Institute of Politics at the Kennedy School Simpson graduated from the University of Wyoming in 1954 Upon graduation, he was commissioned as an ROTC officer He served overseas in the fifth infantry division and in the second armor division in the final months of the army of occupation in Germany Following his honorable discharge in 1956, he returned to the University of Wyoming to complete his study of law, earning his juris doctorate degree in 1958 After serving for a short time as Wyoming Assistant Attorney General, Simpson joined his father in the law firm of Simpson, Kepler, and Simpson in his hometown of Cody He would practice law there for the next 18 years During that time, he was very active in all civic community and state activities He also served ten years as City Attorney He was elected to the United States Senate in November 1978 and served until early 1997 From 1985 to 1995, Simpson was the Republican Whip, the assistant Republican leader in the Senate During his time in office he was chairman the Veterans Affairs Committee He also chaired the Immigration and Refugee Subcommittee of the Judiciary, the Nuclear Regulation Subcommittee, the Social Security Subcommittee, and the Committee on Aging

In early 2010 he was named to cochair the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, focused on tackling the United States’ deficit He was a member of the Iraq Study Group and the Commission on Presidential Debates The conversation will be moderated by Anne Compton, former ABC News White House correspondent Ann Compton joined ABC News in 1973 On September 11th, 2001 Compton was the only broadcast reporter allowed to remain aboard Air Force One during the dramatic hours when President Bush was unable to return to Washington Reporting for all ABC News broadcasts, Compton has traveled around the globe and to all 50 states with presidents, vice-presidents, and first ladies So we’re just about ready to begin A few more administrative notes regarding questions We will allot a few minutes for questions at the end of the conversation Index cards and pencils will be distributed Please write your question and hand it to one of the ushers who will bring it forward We’ll ask as many as we’re able to do in the time that’s available to us We are tweeting; the hashtag is Inouye So tweet away if you are a tweeter And now please join me in welcoming our distinguished panelists to the stage [ Applause ] >> Ann Compton: Well, thank you all for coming A very distinguished audience here with us in the auditorium And aloha to the students in Hawaii who will be able to not only watch this but ask questions as well And you are our favorite audience here tonight And I would like to welcome both panel members as a reporter over an arc of 40 years here in Washington I have covered both men I know that they are not only some of the best known names in Washington and the most respected voices, but I know they are also two of the best liked people in this town And that’s no small achievement I want to start — [ Applause ] >> Can you believe that? >> Ann Compton: I want to start with — I’ve known Alan Simpson since 1978 when he was elected And I never knew the story about how the two of you met And Secretary Mineta, let’s start with you Tell us about moving into that internment camp and tell us about the cane that you carry now >> Norman Mineta: Well, seminal — because I’m going to personalize this — but probably the most seminal moment in my life was December 7th, 1941 We had just returned home from church and we had the radio on And pretty soon people were calling about “What’s going on in Hawaii, and how is that going to impact on us on the mainland?” And so in February 19th of 1942 President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 And that order delegated to the Secretary of the War and to the Commanding General of the Western Civil Defense Command the ability to evacuate persons It didn’t say German, Japanese, Italian; it said just the ability to evacuate and intern persons The Commanding General of the Western Civil Defense Command was a General Dewitt And General Dewitt postured that if the Japanese were able to attack Hawaii, they would probably be able to attack the West Coast And then if they attacked the West Coast, because there were 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry in Washington, Oregon, and California, he had coined the phrase “Once a J-a-p, always a J-a-p.” And if he figured if the military forces came, 120,000 people would join up with the military forces

So he used Executive Order 9066 to commandeer racetracks and county fairgrounds because they had built-in living quarters, namely horse stables And so soon after February 19th, the big placards went up in those neighborhoods where there were many people of Japanese ancestry And the big signs just said simply “Attention all those Japanese ancestry, alien and nonalien.” And even as ten-year-old kid as I was reading that I said, “What’s a nonalien?” I asked my brother, who was 19 — nine years old than me — he said, “That’s you, a citizen.” I said, “Well, why isn’t the government calling me a citizen instead of a nonalien?” Now, I’m not sure how many of you have ever stood up and pounded your chest and said, “I’m a proud nonalien of the United States of America”? I don’t think you have And that’s why to this day I cherish the word “citizen” because my own government wasn’t willing to use that moniker on us So by May of 1942, we were being assembled to move onto the internment sites And we could only take what we could carry And so we were first put into — imprisoned at Santa Anita, the racetrack, which is 400 miles from San Jose So for us it was a big, long overnight train ride to Los Angeles, to Santa Anita, the racetrack And I was ten years old and had my Cub Scout uniform on, baseball, baseball glove, baseball bat And as I got on the train, the MP’s confiscated my bat on the basis it could be used as a lethal weapon So I went running to my father, crying that the MP’s had taken the bat He said, “That’s all right We’ll get it replaced.” But there were no stores in the camps, so it never was replaced So I did lose my bat at the time And 1991 I wrote the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act and that was considered landmark legislation It was the first rewrite of the National Defense Highway Act And the American Society of Civil Engineers gave me the honor of being a fellow of the American Society of Civil Engineers A fellow wrote to me from Los Angeles saying, “Congratulations on becoming fellow And I was very touched by the fact that you lost your bat when you were ten years old And I want to share with you a bat from my collection.” And when I opened the box it was a bat signed by Hank Aaron — he was home run king — and Sadaharu Oh, the home run king of Japan And so I thought wow And so — >> Ann Compton: But that’s not the end of the story >> Norman Mineta: So I wrote the fellow a letter profusely thanking him for this wonderful gift And a reporter from the San Jose Mercury News heard about my getting the bat, so he wrote a story about the bat Being an enterprising reporter went to — excuse me — a sports memorabilia shop, found out the bat was worth $1,500 Well, the gift limitation for those of us in Congress was $250 So I had to pack up the bat, send it back to him, and explaining to him why I couldn’t accept the bat And I sent a copy of that letter to the reporter I penned on there, “The damn government’s taken my bat again.” [ Laughter ] >> Ann Compton: Mr. Secretary, I’m going to bring Alan Simpson into this now because what was it like for you as a kid growing up in Cody, Wyoming to go out and visit families during wartime who were basically American citizens prisoner in their own country? >> Alan Simpson: Well, it was a very confounding time because the war — December 7th, a beautiful Sunday, suddenly they said, “The Japs have attacked Pearl Harbor.” There was no political correctness in those days One of the cartoons in the interpretive center, a very racist cartoon of the first order by Dr. Seuss

Most amazing thing to look at, the guy that went on to charm the millions It was a time of hysteria But what it was really time, there was nothing between Powell and Cody but sagebrush And suddenly in the June, May of ’42 — don’t forget a Japanese submarine shelled the coast of California in March of ’42 And they said, “How could this possibly have happened unless they’re spies?” So they didn’t gather up anybody in Cedar Rapids or Denver or New York They just took them right off the coast — 120,000 — and 14,000 people came to the sagebrush between Cody and Powell; about fifteen miles from Cody, ten from Powell And it had barbed wire, the entire enclosure It was barracks As far as you could see, barracks No toilets in any of the facilities, just a mess house where they ate, and then their toilet in a tar paper shack — literally And they got off the train And at each corner were guard towers with soldiers and machine guns aimed inside Now, when you’re a kid and you’re hearing on the radio every day that the Japs have killed people in Iwo Jima and they were taking us to the woodshed until Midway Island came up and we blew up a lot of their carriers But it was a tough time Signs on the door in Cody, Wyoming, “No Japs allowed,” or “You SOB, you killed my son in Iwo Jima.” And our scout master — very advanced fellow — said, “Look, they’ve got scout troops out there.” I think there were three troops and one was from San Jose And he said, “If any of your parents don’t want you to go, you tell me.” And only one parent said no And my parents said, “These are kids They’re just like you.” And we went out there and just did merit badges and braiding I didn’t have any hair to braid, but we braided other things And met this cat And then it never ended He said that I tried to drown out a bully in his camp and that I made this hideous laughter I know that’s not true [ Laughter ] But nevertheless, it was a great lesson in working through the confusion of a terrible situation and seeing boys just — same merit badges, same little books, same stuff Terrible >> Ann Compton: So here we are in 2016 and we’ve been through — both of you — have been through 2001 and September 11th Are there lessons from the internment process at a time of war, after a time of real attack by a known country, a known adversary to a time now where this shadowy terrorism and the rise of ISIS? What lessons do you take from this? And in the rear view mirror, does the internment seem terribly, terribly wrong or understandable at the time? Senator? >> Alan Simpson: Well, there’s a difference The difference is after we rounded up 120,000 Japanese-Americans, very few of them were permanent resident aliens — some were — the Nisei and the Issei There wasn’t one single case of espionage by any Japanese-American in any one of those camps It’s different this time because you’re dealing with apparently and vividly — and don’t throw anything — of people who like to behead people and give women contraceptives because you’re not supposed to ever rape a woman who could be pregnant These are not pleasant people And at some point you have to make a distinction without getting into hysteria and racism that it’s a very different thing now And that’s not very politically correct And you’re going to have to deal with real refugees And a real refugee is a person fleeing persecution based on race, religion, national origin, or membership in a political or social organization

The dogs are tracking you and the gunners are aiming at you — that’s a refugee And if that definition isn’t met case by case — which was something that Kennedy and I did and George Shultz — you got real problems >> Ann Compton: Mr Secretary, looking back, what should those students who are listening to us from Hawaii know about how you look at the internment and how you look at the security threat now? >> Norman Mineta: Well, I was the Secretary of Transportation on 9/11 And I was having a breakfast meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister of Belgium, who’s also the Minister of Transport for Belgium And I had with me Jane Garvey, who was the head of the Federal Aviation Administration The three of us were having breakfast in my conference room My chief of staff came in and said, “May I see you?” So I excused myself, went into my office As I went into my office, at the other end is a TV console on the floor And as I come walking in, obviously it’s the World Trade Center and black smoke pouring out I said, “What’s all this?” They said, “Well, we don’t know We’ve heard general aviation into the building, we’ve heard the possibility of a commercial airliner into the building, we’ve heard the possibility of an internal explosion in the building.” So I looked at the TV for a little while and went back into the conference room and explained to Jane and to Mrs. [inaudible] what I had just seen And so little later he came back in and said, “May I see you?” So I excused myself, went into my office, and he said it was a commercial airliner that went into the building And I was standing in front of the TV set And then all of a sudden I see something green go across the screen, disappear on the left-hand side of the screen, this yellow orangey billowy cloud And I said, “Holy cow What was all that about?” or words to that effect So I really watched TV for a little while And I finally went into the room and I said, “I don’t know what’s going on in New York, but I know it’s going to involve me Jane, you’ve got to get back to the operation center at the FAA and we’ve got to deal with whatever’s going on.” So I excused myself and went back into my office By the time I got in there, the White House called, said, “Get over here right away.” So I went over to the White House And as we’re driving in, people are running out of the White House, they’re running out of the old executive office building And I said to my driver and security guy, “Is there something wrong with this picture? We’re driving in and everybody else is running out.” So I went into the White House and Dick Clarke said, “You got to be [inaudible] >> Ann Compton: He was the counterterrorism advisor at the time >> Norman Mineta: “You have to be briefed in the situation room by Dick Clarke.” So I went in there and he didn’t really tell me much more than what I had already heard on television Then he said, “You got to be in the PEOC.” And I said, “The PEOC, what is that?” He said, “That’s the Presidential Emergency Operation Center It’s a bunker way under the White House.” I said, “I have no idea where it is.” Secret Service agent standing there said, “I’ll take you.” So I went over there and got there probably about — I think it was about 9:20 or so And the vice-president was in there And so military aid came in, said to the vice-president, “There’s a plane heading towards DC.” So in the POEC there’s a big, long table probably 30 feet long; 12, 15 feet wide; chairs all the way around; phones between each of the chairs This phone I set up to my office, this one to FAA, sat there at that desk talking into both phones And so when he said that there was a plane coming towards DC, said to the FAA people, “What are you tracking of a plane coming towards DC?” And in the credenza behind my desk I had a monitor with an outline of the 48 states and a whole bunch of dots I put my mouse on one of those dots and a flag would come up and say UA 123 — United Airlines flight 123 — PDX and then a number of navigational points, ORD So the plane had left Portland, flying through these points, going to Chicago O’Hare

And then it would say D757 52 — a Boeing 757 Series 200 It would show the compass direction, the amount of fuel left on the plane, and a number of other things But all that transponder had been turned off on that plane And all they were doing was following the blip on the 37-second sweep of the radar So I said [inaudible] “Where’s the plane?” And it’s hard to relate to a radar picture and then try to relate it to the ground So he said, “Well, probably in the middle of Pennsylvania.” So every so often I’d say, “Where is it now?” And so he’d try to guess He’d say, “Probably north of the Baltimore now.” “And where is it now?” “Probably near Roslyn.” “Where is it now?” “Probably between Roslyn and the National Airport.” “Where is it now?” “Oops.” “Oops what?” “We just lost the bogey, just lost the target.” “Where did you lose it?” “Somewhere between Pentagon City and the National Airport.” And then someone broke into the phone and said, “Secretary, we just got a phone call for an Arlington County police officer who saw an American Airlines go into the Pentagon.” So I said, “Monty,” I said, “that’s the third commercial airliner used as a missile today And we don’t know what the heck is going on The military has something called stand down We’ve got to do our own stand down We’re going to bring all the planes down right now.” And Monty said, “We will bring all planes down per pilot discretion.” And I said, “Screw pilot discretion,” because I didn’t want a pilot over let’s say Albuquerque or Phoenix deciding he’d just fly into Los Angeles I wanted all the planes down And at that point we had 5,138 planes over the skies And in two hours and 20 minutes we were able to get them down all safely and without incident But that morning, that Tuesday morning, I pulled three people out of ACS — Aviation Civil Security I said, “Start putting together a security regimen that we can allow the airlines to go back up.” And so they started working on it, pulled them out of FAA and brought them over to my office And they started working on that And it took until Friday for us to get the new regimen out >> Ann Compton: Let me ask you to look at it now through the eyes that we have now where terrorism has now struck softer targets And do you think that the reactions were the right one on September 11th? And what do students and the rest of us now know better as we look back on September 11th? Is there a way to better protect Americans, the broader issue of national security? >> Norman Mineta: Well, I think the fact that the TSA — we established TSA in November of 2001 And since then there has not been a terror incident of any major magnitude in our transportation system The thing that had been before the case was that we allowed the airlines to do their own security And they would put it out to low bid, and whoever got the low bid did the security Well, that proved not to be the case So ACS started putting together the regimen And what they started out with at the very top was no racial or ethnic profiling And that was the first one that was in there on the list of things that they wrote about Now, on Thursday, September 13th we had a cabinet meeting of the House and Senate Republican and Democratic leaders And towards the end of that meeting Congressman David Bonoir of Michigan said, “Mr. President, we have a large population of Arab Americans in Michigan And they’re very, very concerned about all this talk about keeping Middle Easterners off airplanes, keeping Muslims off airlines And even talk about rounding people up, putting them into camps.” And President Bush said, “David, you’re absolutely correct We are equally concerned about the rhetoric going on And we don’t want to have happen today what happened to Norm in 1942.” And you could have hit me with a feather and knocked me off my chair

>> Ann Compton: Wow We have so much territory to cover I want to move ahead Alan Simpson, when you look back at that time and, of course, then in 47 days after the September 11th attacks, the United States Congress passed the Patriot Act And you were the judiciary committee during your time in the Senate Do you think the Patriot Act was the right next move? It’s been revised, obviously, since then But was that reaction an understandable one in terms of national security? >> Alan Simpson: Well, it was responding to hysteria and fear and racism And, you know, I always love it — I don’t love it — I’m puzzled when people talk about what happened in World War II, that Earl Warren was right at the forefront of evacuating these people And he spent his life on the Supreme Court trying to expiate his guilt Franklin Roosevelt, one of the greatest civil libertarians of all time, with a great tragedy the Supreme Court of the United States in a 6-3 decision together with the majority of William O. Douglas said this was perfectly okay, a military necessity So people said, “Oh, how horrible.” Well, so what? It happened and you can’t unwind history There was a dissent by a guy named Murphy He was a hack He was a Democrat hack I hate to say that, but he was But he should go down in history with the Constitution and the Gettysburg Address He wrote the dissent, which in Wyoming terms was essentially “Military necessity my ass.” This was a total violation of the Constitution of the United States of America based on race and hysteria We are all foreigners in this country And it isn’t that big as on the wall of the interpretive center that dear Norm raised all the bucks — I took some of the credit But these things — I mean, it was done And now, you know, they’re talking about privacy I mean, I have another twisted view of life: I have no privacy, never did I wish they hadn’t found out about some of the stuff but, you know, shooting mailboxes and being on federal probation and hitting a cop — those are not good things But nevertheless, my view is very simple: What do you got to hide? And this thing between Apple and the US is going to get a lot bigger It’s going to be like bear meat — the more you chew it, the bigger it gets And at some point you’re going to find guys who are encrypted not for going good things in the world; they’re encrypting so they can do bad things and then invent their own coinage for God’s sake and play bit — I mean, the fun and games in my lifetime in this area are going to be full zone bullet jacket stuff >> Ann Compton: So where are we now in terms of the Patriot Act and then the USA Freedom Act, which came on after Edward Snowden, an analyst who had left Hawaii with all the briefcases full of secrets and put them out there to make sure that they were published What does the United States do now? What should Americans know about their privacy right now and the balance with national security, Alan? >> Alan Simpson: I don’t know As I say, it’s a puzzler You know, they’re waiting for Snowden They want to extradite him He’d love to come home, though he ain’t going to get home And then there pretty soon somebody will say as we say but your shirt, your heart fall out We should have him back and all that Well, we will bring him back We’ll do something in the court system when he comes back I don’t know The whole thing is shot through with political correctness, which when I taught at Harvard, I told my class, “If anyone’s enamored by political correctness, you want to get out of here Because we’re going to talk about everything — the Irish troubles,

Armenian genocide, abortion, homosexuality All of this will be talked about without a muzzle.” Because I think people who say, “I’ve never had a bad thought about anything I’m just the sweetest person on earth and never had any bias or prejudice certainly.” That’s just BS So that’s going to be one and that’s why this guy Trump is hitting all the chords on the Phantom of the Opera >> Ann Compton: Trump, who is this? >> Alan Simpson: He’s not my guy >> Ann Compton: Mr. Secretary? >> Norman Mineta: Well, I was on the Intelligence Committee when we wrote the FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act In there, there was a requirement that the NSA had to get a search warrant to tap the lines of a US citizen, go to a three-judge tribunal to get a search warrant Now, that was eliminated in the Patriot Act And so the protection there about what can the government have access to wasn’t there And that bothered me And I remember the administration had asked me to help get the Patriot Act through I said no, I couldn’t help them because they had eliminated the three-judge panel when they rewrote the FISA act And so I think there has to be the kind of protection to citizens, even with the national security as extreme as it could be And otherwise, you know, the whole — the thing I couldn’t understand was on September 11th was sort of reliving the evacuation of ’42 Because here you had the media people saying, “Round them up, keep them off planes.” And so, I mean, even the president said, “We don’t want to have happen today what happened to Norm in ’42.” And then he met with a large group of Arab-Americans, Muslims at the Islamic Study Center on Mass Avenue on Monday, September 17th And he said to them, “We know who did that last Tuesday They were not loyal Arab-Americans They were not faithful followers of Islam They were terrorists And we’re going to go after them.” And the same thing happened at the end of September, there was someone shot and killed — a man who owned a gas station It was a minimart And when they apprehended the killer, they said, “Why did you kill him?” He said, “Because he looked like the enemy.” The fellow was a Sikh And he had — >> Ann Compton: The turban >> Norman Mineta: He had facial hair, he had leg bindings Said simply because he looked like the enemy.” >> Ann Compton: What part of government really has to take the lead on security? Is it the Executive? Is Congress uniquely unsuited to really grapple with these issues? Should it really be left to the courts, the ultimate resort the courts? Who in government? >> Norman Mineta: Well, it requires — the Executive part of our government still requires laws by which it gets the authority to do something So as in the Transportation Security Act of November 17, 2001, Congress created TSA and gave us the — there were 36 mandates in the law as to what we had to do So you still had to have the Congress involved in it At the time Congress wanted to have the security done by contractors And I maintained that the contractors didn’t do their job And I wanted them as federal employees so that regardless whether you got on the plane in Chicago, Dallas, Fort Worth, or [inaudible] Iowa, you were going to have the same kind of level of security being applied So we were finally able to get Congress >> Ann Compton: These things are a federal job Immigration is a federal responsibility >> Norman Mineta: That’s our next — >> Alan Simpson: Not a state-by-state responsibility But if you have a Congress that won’t function on an issue

and they’re not functioning on the issue, then the president’s going to come in with executive order, which is exactly what has happened with immigration And when we did an immigration bill back in ’86, bipartisan, big votes both sides, it didn’t work because the right and the left — Grover Norquist rode in on his white horse, I remember, and his robes He was kind of like Paul Revere in reverse [ Laughter ] And then also the ACLU rose in abject anguish and called what we had in there — we got to have a more secure identifier to protect the employer And they took it out because the national rage created by the left and the right was that that was a national ID card Boy, that’s a way to kill stuff around this joint: Invent a flash word National ID card Now they’re talking about retina scans and fingerprints And nobody’s written any kind of an editorial about the slippery slope I mean, you know, it is madness But if Congress won’t function, any president is going to function And then if that doesn’t work, the court will function And that’s the way that works >> Ann Compton: We are going to open to your questions in just a moment Let me get you both before we take these questions to focus on immigration Because that is the next logical area in the kind of national security debate that we’ve had in the United States and the court’s decisions Why, Senator Simpson, were you able to get immigration legislation — landmark legislation — in 1986? And is it ever going to be possible in the early part of the 21st century? >> Alan Simpson: Well, when we started Ron Mazzoli was a Democrat from Kentucky Norm knew him well And he was the chairman of judiciary and the Subcommittee on Immigration And I said, “Why are we having a hearing in the House?” on the issue of whatever it was, security or whatever, or amnesty — which we changed the word to legalization, which threw all of them off And you have to learn how to throw them off, you know, before they gnaw a hole through you So I said, “Let’s have a joint hearing — House and Senate together I’ll come over to your shop.” We had to go to the Speaker to get that done because he controls the shop And Tip O’Neill looked as us both and said, “What the hell’s wrong with that?” And we did I think we had twenty joint hearings Covered a lot of ground Kennedy was my ranking member Sonny Montgomery was over there in the Democrats, Ham Fish — good, thoughtful people The vote was bipartisan And then I remember very swiftly I was still in the Senate and they said, “Now, the Republicans, we need to do a Republican immigration bill and you’re the wizard.” I said, “There is no such thing as a Republican immigration bill, and if you think there is, you’ll never get one It has to be a bipartisan bill.” And that’s what they can’t get done now until they realize that this is a national issue that should be handled by a national Congress of bipartisan, good faith people They’re not going to get anywhere Period >> Ann Compton: We’re going to start with some questions We still have a lot of area that we need to hit So please, where would you like to start us? >> John Van Oudenaren: We’ll start with a question submitted from the students in Hawaii who are watching online One of the students has a question about American values and states that American values are what makes us unique >> I had a mortar platoon in the army and I’m not getting — it’s blurry >> John Van Oudenaren: I’ll repeat the question >> Yeah, please >> John Van Oudenaren: The question about American values which are seen around the world as one of the great things about this country The question is: How do you each think we are doing in role modeling our values in the face of threats? And what more do we need to do to enhance security without undermining what many internationally find most attractive in the US? >> Ann Compton: Could you hear part of that, Secretary Mineta? What do we need for national security that doesn’t violate our sense of privacy rights, of the honor? What was the other phrase that the student used?

>> John Van Oudenaren: Integrity Integrity >> Ann Compton: The integrity of Americans Now, that’s a — it’s a great question, but it’s also a very tall order >> Norman Mineta: Next question [ Laughter ] Well, I think first we start with common sense But I think we also [inaudible] baked into there is the increased need for the use of technology in terms of being able to do things today from a security perspective And I think there are ways of doing that And I think — but as Alan just pointed out, the Apple case is a good example of where you do get into issues involving technology But I think what we have done in TSA — and one thing that TSA does is they’re looking at that security issue every day I mean, in December of 2001, we had to deal with the shoe bomber And then we had to deal with — usually explosives are solids But by 2003 we were dealing with liquids So now we were dealing with containers of less than 3.0 fluid ounces So but it’s something that’s just changing every day And I think that’s what is required >> Ann Compton: Senator? >> Alan Simpson: There’s got to be something that you do that has to do with identification Without getting into the horror story, something that would be presented at the time of — it wouldn’t be carried on your person, it wouldn’t be whatever, all the horror stories But it would be something that you presented at the time of employment And it would be presented by bald white guys like me, as well as others The issue always comes up we’re just going to ask that of people who look foreign Well, that’s absurd Nobody’s for that But you have to do something that has a universal — at one time we talked about having the maiden name of a person’s mother on the back of a card Well, that will cost trillions Well, you know, we’ve all heard that one And then to put something like a slide card like you do in Macy’s somewhere or something that has to be done by everybody And at that point it will be intrusive; it will be reported as intrusive But at some point in time there will be one of these boobs of any color, or shape, or form that’s going to ignite a shoe box somewhere in this country And then we’ll all stand around and blink like a frog in a hailstorm [ Laughter ] >> Ann Compton: Next question >> John Van Oudenaren: There are a couple of questions about refugees and what the United States should do in light of the current refugee situation in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and how we might protect our national security and accept refugees from these countries? >> Ann Compton: Good questions on accepting refugees Pope Francis came back to the Vatican from a visit in Greece bringing 12 Syrian refugees I don’t know who vetted them, but they got on the plane and they came back [inaudible] three families, I believe There are some Americans communities that don’t want Syrian refugees anywhere near them There are some churches and groups and community groups who have welcomed them and said, “Let us help you.” Do you, either of you worry about the flood of Syrian refugees coming into the United States? And since the screening would be so hard to do, is that a weak point in the United States’ security? >> Alan Simpson: Well, any weak point is a weak point if you don’t understand the difference between an economic migrant, and guy that just wants to get the hell out of his country, and a refugee A refugee is something that is cherished and then they can go to sanctuary, which is a cherished thing You can’t be an economic migrant that just doesn’t like his country or decides to hop on a plane and close his shop because his neighbor got shot That is not a refugee I know, don’t throw anything, please I’ve been here So you have to do this case by case And it’s tedious but it works But the economic migrant is flooding the world because when you’re out of food and water and you have a lovely family, you’re going to start walking >> Ann Compton: And you’ve lost your home in Syria because of —

>> Alan Simpson: That’s right But a refugee — a real refugee — the minute their foot hits the next spot out, that’s it You don’t get to pick where you want to go I know that sound nasty, I know it does But once you’re a refugee or seeking asylum — that’s the same in a sense, you’re there or you’re not there — once you hit that next piece of land where isn’t that oppression, that’s it You cannot then say, “I want to go to the United States I want to go to Germany I want to go to France I want to go to Israel.” It’s not the way it works And boy, you start playing that and the violin music will overcome you >> Ann Compton: Do you want to add in on that? >> Norman Mineta: The status of refugee, the investigation that’s required of that is very, very intensive And so it is very difficult, really, to be I think vetted as a refugee And I think to the extent that they are vetted as refugees, I would say they’re safe and clear to come in >> Ann Compton: Do you think that the current system for vetting refugees and those who are trying to come into the United States is adequate? >> Norman Mineta: Absolutely Because I think it requires the personal signature of the Secretary of Homeland Security and — >> Alan Simpson: Secretary of State >> Norman Mineta: Secretary of State >> Alan Simpson: George Shultz, who was very helpful to Kennedy and I on that >> Ann Compton: Yep Another question? >> John Van Oudenaren: There are a number of questions about privacy and surveillance And one of the students from the University of Hawaii actually asked if the surveillance measures employed now by the NSA create a sort of virtual internment camp >> Ann Compton: That’s interesting Do you think that the kind of response to Edward Snowden’s leaks and the kind of surveillance — the broader surveillance, whether it went through the FISA court or not — almost levees the threat or the feeling of an interment and a restriction that impinges too much on Americans’ privacy rights? >> Norman Mineta: Well, when I was Secretary of Transportation, I did ban — not ban — we were not processing any of the applications as it related to drones Because I thought the invasion of civil — or just privacy was tremendous In fact, just a month ago, my wife and I and another couple were at a restaurant in San Francisco along the Bay And here comes a drone and it just went back and forth in front of us And, you know, I was thinking “Whose drone is that? What are they looking for?” And I thought back to 2003 when I was saying we’re not going to allow drones And so — >> Ann Compton: And now they almost — that genie seems out of the bottle, isn’t it? >> Norman Mineta: Oh, it is It really is >> Ann Compton: Senator? >> Alan Simpson: Well, these technical things now are quite dazzling for us old coots — Twitter, tweety, Instagram You know, it’s amazing And then they’re talking about some new thing that I can’t remember They’re all new But the point is the invasion — if anyone believes that there’s privacy in America, they’re in a dream world There was a program — I don’t remember what it was — and they had a couple from Dubuque or Boone, Iowa or Cheyenne and they said, “How much do you think we know about you?” And they said, “We’ve never done anything important, so you don’t know too much.” And they ran up on the screen and man, they knew lots about those two people through their media habits, through their buying habits — they’re buying stuff on the Internet, you’re answering those little questions, or you’re get that stuff in the mail And they know everything you would never imagine they know about all of us So this plea for privacy and then to have it upheld by the media,

crying for a right of privacy, well, they’re the greatest invaders of anybody’s privacy >> Ann Compton: Real quickly for each of you, should Apple have immediately done what it could to help the federal government on cracking that phone? >> Alan Simpson: You take that Norm, quick >> Norman Mineta: I think so, but I’m on the minority on that >> Ann Compton: You think that Apple should have? >> Norman Mineta: Oh, they should have been much more open about dealing with that issue But I’m a real minority on that >> Ann Compton: Okay, okay >> Alan Simpson: But I think that’s the view of older people: What do you got to hide? And this — who wouldn’t want to know what’s on the cell phone of a couple of cooks that destroyed 14 human beings and were in contact with people maybe around the world? Who wouldn’t want to know that? It was like the old Stanford Daily case; do you remember that? They had a riot at Stanford and the Stanford Daily paper — the student paper — knew who had been involved And the cops wanted that information It went clear to the US Supreme Court and Justice Wyatt said, “You can’t have that kind of protection They want to know who did this You can’t pull this game of, you know, the right of privacy and protection of source and all this stuff.” And when you have murderous people in the world, these other things sound good and they are part of America, but don’t think America is diminished when we’re trying to wipe out people who hate our guts I don’t know, sick idea >> Ann Compton: I want to make sure we have time for a few more questions from the audience and from the students >> John Van Oudenaren: Another question from Hawaii, actually a couple questions from Hawaii ask about providing military equipment to local police forces >> Ann Compton: Providing what to local? >> Military equipment >> Ann Compton: Equipment >> John Van Oudenaren: To police forces, especially in light of what occurred in Ferguson and on Staten Island with Michael Brown, is how do we balance security in those instances with civil liberties? >> Ann Compton: Well, obviously in the cases after Ferguson, Missouri and in some other communities — Baltimore had some riots — some people have objected to what looked like a huge military operation And isn’t that really up to the local community, the local law enforcement? Someday they might need that armored troop carrier and the water canons Sometimes they may overuse it But should local police departments have access to quite so much military fire power? >> Alan Simpson: I think that’s a point Both of us were in the military And, you know, we weren’t trained to hand out daisies; we were trained to kill people And so I do think that when you have an armored personnel carrier in the midst of a city and you unload a squad from the back of it, if those are things that I knew how to run, I think that’s highly intimidating But that came from that funding source where they said, “We got this leftover stuff and all you have to do is apply for it.” And I think it has to be rather frightening when you’re in the street and alone or with or without arms I don’t know, I think there’s real truth to the military >> Ann Compton: And some of those incidents were racial incidents at a local level as opposed to San Bernardino where it was clearly an attack by people who had a political or radical ideology that they were trying to strike at a soft target >> Norman Mineta: Yeah Having been mayor, I’m not sure that I would want to have a police force with that equipment The whole issue of policing is really — the whole issue is how do you relate to the community? When I was mayor, police were starting to put helmets on And I finally said to our chief of police, “I’m not sure I want our police with these hard helmets on They don’t smile They can’t be friendly-looking just having these hardhats on.” And so we were one of the first ones after — and I negotiated this with our police union — and so we took the caps or the hardhats off of our police

We were also one of the first departments to require psychological testing of applicants And this was in 1973 And the — at the time the police, the union really came down on me saying, you know, “You think we’re all psychotics?” And I said “No, not at all Today every department across the country is doing psychological testing.” But it’s really for their own protection For the same thing with the military type of equipment, I don’t think it’s really necessary Even in Katrina when General Honore came in with the military forces and they were there with their weapons out, and he was running up and down the street telling people to get their weapons up Not to, you know, point them at the mass of people And General Honore really, I think, did a great service in lifting those >> Alan Simpson: But there’s this wonderful man that uses common sense and doesn’t get caught up in the grinder of emotion, fear, guilt, and racism or try to have a press conference every few minutes to blow your own horn This is happening and people are so confounded by it Where is common sense? What happened? The most uncommon thing is common sense And when Norm was mayor I happened to know that he would gather people together and talk and say, “Where are we? What are we doing?” That’s what he did in Congress That’s how he got — >> Ann Compton: Does that work in 2016? >> Alan Simpson: Not when you’ve got everybody stereotyped I can tell you that here we did this piece of work — don’t throw anything — it was called the National Commission on Deficit and Debt We got five Democrats, five Republicans, one Independent That’s 60% And then say, “Well, who was on it?” Well, Dick Durbin Dick Durbin? That Commie from Illinois? Is that what you — I said, “Well, Tom Corburn.” Tom Corburn? That guy from — that Republican from Oklahoma? That’s your country today People don’t dislike somebody, they hate them and they got them pegged as a Democrat They hate Obama, they hate [inaudible], they hate Trump, they hate Cruz, they hate Hillary It’s not dislike It’s disgusting And hatred corrodes the container it’s carried in >> Ann Compton: So tell the students especially who are watching from Hawaii, how do Americans bring the country back from that kind of atmosphere? >> Alan Simpson: Well, they could get off their butt and get in the game Because if you really want to do something, pick a party and become a precinct committee man — that’s the lowest form of amoeba Or you could be a precinct committee man or woman You could run for the school board I brought Norm to Harvard I couldn’t have got into Harvard if I had picked the locks But I told him, “Get up here because they’re protesting the [inaudible] thing down in [inaudible].” He came and he said, “Anybody can carry a placard Anybody can stand in the street with a poster Use your brain Get in the game.” And that’s what it’s all about If you’re a young person today, you pick your party and start at the lowest level and bring your influence and your brains to that party — to the lowest level, then the county, whatever Instead of just, you know, carrying a placard or bitching >> Ann Compton: Good advice We have — I think we have two more quick questions [ Applause ] >> John Van Oudenaren: I want to throw one in real quickly back on security: Should Guantanamo be shut down? Is it more — President Obama argues that it is inciting some terrorist attacks against the United States And why shouldn’t some of those detainees who are too dangerous to let them go back to wherever they came from go into a kind of a super max American prison? >> Alan Simpson: Go ahead, Norm, before I give them [inaudible] >> Norman Mineta: Yeah I, in fact, was at Guantanamo on Thanksgiving Day of 2002 when they were just starting to come in And I think there were five Al-Qaeda prisoners there at the time I think there was a great deal of justification for establishing Guantanamo at the time

And since then I think we have other ways of dealing with it And I don’t think we need Guantanamo as it is, as we know it >> Ann Compton: Do you agree with that, Senator? >> Alan Simpson: How many are there now? Eighty? Sixty? >> Ann Compton: It’s under ninety >> Alan Simpson: But don’t forget, every one of them had a lawyer They’ve all tried hard and they failed And at some point in time — >> Ann Compton: And no other country wants them, either >> Alan Simpson: What? >> Ann Compton: No other country wants them, either >> Alan Simpson: No And any Congressman that will say, “Well, bring them to my state,” is not long in office And they’ve already shown up Don’t bring them to New York And the president is obsessed by this He made a promise and he wants desperately to carry it out But it’s never going to happen under his jurisdiction We sent five guys off the other day Five went before and now they’re head of the Yemen operation down there blowing things up So at some point in time we say in the West, “If your horse drops dead, it’s best to get off.” >> Ann Compton: That’s Wyoming wisdom Last question I think we stumped our questioner [inaudible] No, please, go right ahead >> For our final question from Hawaii again: Have your political views ever gotten in the way of your friendship? >> Ann Compton: Have your political views ever gotten in the way of your friendship? >> Alan Simpson: Of our friendship? I love this guy And we — when he called me to work on the reparations bill, it was very controversial >> Ann Compton: What year was this? >> Alan Simpson: This was [inaudible] but my colleague was Malcolm Wallop There are people who remember Malcolm; he was violently opposed to it He said, “Who’s next? We going to do something with the blacks? How about the Native Americans? Who is next of the aggrieved?” And he was [inaudible] finally said, “Look, I was there and I was in that camp and I know Norm and what they’re doing.” Some people refused the money They said, “It isn’t about money; I’m still embarrassed that they threw me in this incarceration.” So friendship is a beautiful thing And we never — I don’t think either of us ever since we were 12 and now we’re 84 have ever looked at each other and say, “By God, I don’t agree with you at all on that issue of politics.” And he served two presidents — a Democrat and a Republican I loved it when Bush appointed him and Norm said, “Look, if you’re looking for a token Japanese guy to go out and campaign for the Republican Party, you’ve got the wrong guy.” And Bush said, “I want you.” And his loyalty to Bush and Bush’s toward him, you don’t find that You don’t find people who invite other people Reagan made the White House a social center And Clinton was the same way They loved people But when you don’t love people, never invite the other guy over to your shop You’re paying a dear price >> Ann Compton: Secretary Mineta, you get the last word on whether politics ever affect that friendship And on a broader scale, too, you’ve lived and worked in Washington through Republican and Democratic administrations, Republican and Democratic control of the House and the Senate >> Norman Mineta: Not really I suppose the closest I got to thinking that he had gotten off the horse — the wrong horse — was during the Justice Thomas hearings >> Ann Compton: Clarence Thomas hearings >> Alan Simpson: He did have a comment on that Wasn’t nasty, but I voiced my opinion And he told me to — [ Laughter ] >> Ann Compton: Gentlemen, what a treat for all of us Thank you, Senator Alan Simpson, Secretary Norman Mineta, and for the kind of perspective you have shared not only with friends and neighbors in Washington but the kind of perspective you have shown to students who in Daniel Inouye’s institute are the positive forces that we all hope will be taking over when we get past 84, all the way to 86 or 90 Thank you all very much for coming [ Applause ]

>> John Van Oudenaren: And thank you, Anne, for a wonderful job in moderating The Kluge Center and the Inouye Institute will be putting forth three more programs in this series in the coming years So please watch for the announcements We invite you to stay in touch with us via social media or email to learn more about the activities of the Kluge Center and the Library of Congress in general and of the Inouye Institute A video of this event will be posted on our website and the institute website in the weeks ahead Thank you, again, for your attendance this evening And once again, let’s give a round of applause for our [inaudible] [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress Visit us at loc.gov

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