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good evening and welcome to the journey home I’m Marcus Grodi your host for this program this is a special program it’s the beginning of our 19th season wow I had no idea we have this great privilege with EWTN to continue entering into your homes to introduce to you men and women who guided by the spirit were open to a deeper walk with Jesus Christ in His Church and I try whenever I start a new season to have a special guest for the program tonight I’ve got two special guests in fact our guests tonight are converts to the church that some of you may have heard about because their conversion they had a few ripples not in just in America but actually more significantly over the pond in Europe our guests tonight are often the Gaeta Ekman former charismatic nondenominational pastor pastors pastor pastor we’ll find out in a moment they founded the word of a life mega church in Sweden so this doesn’t happen very often so I am greatly honored off welcome Thank You Quito welcome thank program this has been a long time I’ve heard about your journey excited about it in fact I kind of wondered whether our our EWTN filming of journey homes in Sweden had any influence at all we’ll find out about that in a moment but as I always do get out of the way as soon as I can and invite you to start wait at the beginning and give us your journey thank you very much thank you it’s wonderful to be able to be under the program we thank we’ve seen your program many times so and they those programs have actually been a part of our journey so we’re very happy for that right we come from little different backgrounds and my background is secular background I was a part of you know where you grew up your teenager and this was in the 60s and and what happened in Europe was even bit more violent than than in the u.s. rose oil so that was a little bit apart of that and and anyway as a restless teenager you know going to high school but one of my friends kay just call me once and said you know hallelujah and I said what is this is that I have received Jesus and and I thought well you know he has a problem and I need to help them and and I said I can come over and help you and but instantly when I started to talk to him I felt I I need I need to stay away from this it was something in me that just you know stay away from this this is dangerous so I avoided him for maybe three months after that I felt no I need to talk to him – I caught him up again went back to him and as he shared his testimony conviction came over me so strong I could not even spell the word conviction but something happens so strong and instantly I knew that was sin in my life I need to get it right and he said can we pray and I said no no no way you cannot pray for me I just left actually jumped on a trolley you say or tram you know and and four or five minutes journey back to my home and during that time every five minutes I could hear on the inside you can receive the forgiveness of sins so as I came home late Saturday night I did what I’ve never done before I went into my room I closed the door went down on my knees and said if my if my friend is right Jesus if you’re out there and if it’s true that you can take away my sins I want you to come into my life I want the forgiveness of sins and instantly something happened and went to bed next morning Sunday morning I’ve had what do Christians do on Sunday I’m a Christian now so what do they go to church I went to an old Lutheran church and the pastor there priest we call him in Sweden had about a 40 45 minute long sermon a traditional old-fashioned Lutheran where he described how a sinner comes to the Lord and receives righteousness forgiveness of sins and I was sitting thinking he describes every detail in my life and what I did yesterday so that’s how it started for me coming from the outside receiving Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior not knowing much at all but I knew instantly that I’m not questioned so a true work of grace yeah unexpected work of grace

yes yes no just one clarification you would have been brought up technically a secular Lutheran yes yes as a state Church and Confirmation everybody has confirmation so there were seeds planted of course but I did not live that life I was not interested but something yeah step by step I guess I wasn’t even conscious of it and then they came together we would look back and see that the seeds of those sacramental Grace’s were lying dormant under walk yes young yes but then God’s grace just praise God I mean that’s exciting because what I’m excited also you’re a little bit that’s we hear big ITA’s is is how that also was planted in you that you’ve got to help others have the same experience yes I mean that’s that’s what we’re going to talk about in a moment there’s a wall big how about you when I was okay come from a Methodist family my parents were missionaries in in India for ten years and I was born there and went to school there and lived it till I was ten years old came back to Sweden and my father was a pastor then I in Methodist churches in Sweden but in my teens I I’m more attended the Lutheran youth meetings in our hometown and I loved it because the Methodist Church in our town was very small and just a few old ladies it was more fun with a Lutheran youth group but one thing that really has stayed with me from those years is the nicene creed that we prayed every time we met and I loved it very much and then there was sort of a revival of of going to Mass Lutheran it was but it was a very very wonderful Mass so I learned to love the Eucharist without really knowing what it was but I loved it I loved the liturgy and and it kept me safe for some years but then in the later teens III wandered off and you know they got attracted by all sorts of things and but thank God in in when I was a bit over 20 the charismatic revival sort of came to Sweden and this was early 70s and I went to a meeting there and really really met the Lord and decided I want to be a Christian I don’t what I want anything else so that was wonderful so I had a wonderful experience of turning my life over to to Jesus and and I was fed by this charismatic renewal for some years until I met this guy that was that charismatic renewal would just sound like was also touching you yes yes that come from the states somewhere else in Europe both for me personally it was actually an American from Seattle that was in in Gothenburg my hometown that had talked to my friend and then my friend introduced me to him and his testimony and his life and his radiance and his love of Jesus totally threw me off and and so so that was a part of this and it was a it was a I I didn’t have any weapons for it you know so the charismatic movement at that time came in suddenly became quite strong in Sweden and affected many many young people so I think we were both undefeated yes I was also thinking what it what a great grace that that 45 minute sermon you heard the next morning was a good one no I don’t want this but affirming everything you’d experience yes that was definitely work of God yes affair so was the next step YouTube meeting no I think this was in my home town and I have already decided to go to university which is to go to epsilon university which is north of north of Stockholm I think when you were Sweden I don’t think you went up there maybe it’s a larger a large University and and so I went up there and the first day I was at campus as a freshman you say oh yeah I met an evangelical a chemical group that did Bible studies and so on and immediately they approached me the The Navigators yes yes so I got into the navigators and that really helped me because they were so structured in disciplined Bibles to very discerning memorized yes and I I saw the few months in in as a young Christian in Gothenburg I met these young people that all know the Bible I didn’t know the Bible and they could quote verses and they were so full of love and they prayed and I prayed to say I want this I want to know the Bible so I came up to Absalom I met these people and for about six years I was involved with the navigators as I was doing my bachelor then I went into the Army for one year compulsory at that time and

after that I decided study theology so as I was more in the navigators I had the charismatic experience of being filled with the spirit which with the navigators was little you know different camps yeah so it was more like a closeted charismatic but but they they didn’t mind in my way so we had a gimme it was wonderful but the Bible study the the memorization and the evangelization was wonderful and it meant so much to me oh yes and when we met he was a strict navigator there and I admired the discipline in knowing the Bible so well I was a very charismatic girl and but we both loved Scripture so we talked about the Bible and but we met on a Bible study and then we took a walk and what we actually talked about then I remember so well we talked about the church what is the church the liturgy how important it is and we were both sort of navigated charismatic but this we had income that’s interesting you were drawn to the liturgy but that isn’t necessary to the charismatic or the Navigator no not at all no not at all because it’s very low charge since you know when I went to Mass every week and for you you had to study in your read because I was studying books yeah and I was telling theology at times so I was getting more into it but I do not have a staunch Lutheran background but and I needed to know more and I was very attracted by by the high church movement as well as the low church on the charismatic so all these three influences and studied about the mass of course needed to study about it because I was on my way to become a hare Lutheran priest so and that’s when we met so yeah but we talk more about then than just a mass prayer but that really United us yes yeah all right well next step I mean so you’re you’re studying to be a Lutheran priest yes we say priest in Sweden because it’s more liturgical and so on then then usually what the Lutheran churches are in the other Scandinavian nations or in in Europe so anyway I had the opportunity and to be ordained by a very good bishop and to become one of the chaplains as Uppsala University which was wonderful it was a low church movement more like in diversity time yes yes and so for about two years I was involved in that and we got married 1976 and I was attained 79 and then so we got involved in student binders because I’ve been involved in student evangelism the whole time when I studied so I wanted to continue if possible and so this opportunity came up and I was I really felt it was the Lord to stay and to do Bible studies with students and and so on and I enjoyed it very much but in this process that’s when we felt that we needed to do something more we were very in this time it was like we really came more into the charismatic I did ma’am you were already in it I came more into the charismatic movement so we wanted to do something more like start a Bible School for people across the Christian spectrum not just Lutheran’s so eventually we started what would be Word of Life and that was quite a step at that time to start more of an independent ministry independent Bible schools at common and really yeah cutting-edge so we were influenced by faith teaching and charismatic teaching and and also a desire for missions so we started this private school that instantly grew first year we had there about two hundred coming which in Sweden was almost unheard of at that time and then really the the Lutheran Church in Sweden oh well in my studies it was always a combat between liberals and conservatives and and the liberalism was quite extensive in the church okay well just for those listening on radio our guests are often the Gita Ekman this was what a great privilege to have you here so I mean it really is even in America this rise of these mega churches you know that’s become a phenomenon but at some point it really was breaking from a tradition that every if you’re Methodist you stay a Methodist you’re Lutheran you still Lutheran yes but the breaking away and so you were one of those cutting edge couples that did yes and we went one here to the states and and then we came back and so of course what was happening here in the charismatic movement in the faith movement we went to Rhema for a while and this the freedom that you could see

on the surface that they’re so innovative and and doing things a different way and going out much more in evangelism attracted us very much plus the gifts of the Holy Spirit so this we came back to Sweden after that and started the Bible School and we really no intention of starting a church and not really thinking that the Bible School would be big but I think it met in need at that time so there were I mean for us 200 people quite a lot and came 200 and then the the Bible School started to grow and and and he grew substantially so in this process or in the beginning of it we felt we needed to start a church so because where should these people go they need to have they need where do they go on Sunday and so forth so we started this church that became became in the beginning highly controversial but after a while it was people getting used to it of course and and so on at that time there was not many independent churches now there is it the totally different scene that okay but anyway so it expanded drastically and and and we were young in the ministry and we did a lot of mistakes of course but still we really felt that this was it was amazing to see how the Lord met the needs for all that especially these young people and so we started send out teams also for in evangelism and later on admissions Wow so was it mainly I’m trying to imagine being in this movement that you didn’t anticipate was going to be a church starting a Bible study but you know a pretty as you moved to a church questions like well what do we have a set of teachings – what about sacraments mm-hmm what about future leaders and yes are you gonna ordain people I mean I mean those must have been questions that you were confronting but whether they came after a while it’s basically we started we’re having meetings and we’re having Bible studies we’re having evangelism and we were so this and it grew people came from everywhere almost so we were so preoccupied with this that something happened and it was basically and now we were over about we felt we needed to build a church building so we we built one and first we thought about thousand and then we expanded it so it ended up with four thousand seats so he was building and all this happened fast we we’re in 1987 now we started the church 83 and 89 the wall fell down the Iron Curtain so I I see it in one way as the Providence of God that he prepared us and all these hundreds and eventually thousands to send them out into missionary work and over the years going on which I think we sent out about five or six thousand short-term missionaries you know gone out a couple of weeks a couple of months and so and also those numerous long-term that stayed longer but this was because of the Iron Curtain we felt instinctive this is what we are supposed to do we supposed to go in and preach the gospel in Soviet Union are these missionaries going out to bring people to Jesus Christ and return to their churches or they going out bringing Jesus Christ and starting little churches when they went into the Soviet Union there was no churches you know I mean of course you had the underground Pentecostals in rap history but basically the the territory we and the Orthodox of course but the territories where we went they were hardly any so we just went out and had meetings we preached in streets and squares and then we rented buildings people would come we rented the the former KGB headquarters in Estonia in in one of the cities in in in – and people would come for that meeting was a three-day meeting people would come from all the way from from magadhan which isn’t the other side ways to come they’re in with with the Train and after the three meetings three days were over people refuse to go home and they said you must start a Bible School here and we said but we are leaving we have work but you need to start one so because we want more of this teaching so that those who came in to the faith those that that received Jesus they instantly wanted the Bible they wanted to know so we started a Bible School there and out of that came actually a strong missionary work so preaching establishing Bible schools out of that establishing concrete new churches and congregations it was like a wildfire and there were eight hundred up to about a thousand congregations that came out of this and step by step we didn’t start every nhe one but it was a

flow it just right yeah we work with the spirit and at the same time is your home pick Church where your past is growing yeah yes II grew at the same time yes yeah I can’t help but think that your childhood missionary experience was part of a seed of this – I think so yes emissions was very important to me it was so self-evident you have to go out and tell others so I many times I joined us when he went to Russia and it was an amazing experience to see the Russians come forward you know the altar cause I see their faces see them weeping see the glowing of joy it was wonderful to see thousands it was amazing time right there in the beginning of the 90s I treasure those memories and it’s still so strong we were in Kazakhstan only a few weeks ago and we still meet people that have been influenced by word of life in and bath nation our your movements being received by the more traditional churches around you were very skeptical and and and of course and and me coming are we coming out from the Lutheran Church which was highly unusual so we were controversial but step by step I mean there’s still some that don’t like it of course but step by step I think people start to recognize that this is something that is know but it’s not something that will go away it is there so we were so involved both in home in Sweden but also abroad in missionary work but it was in this period that I also started having some questions about how we were doing things and how we were handling things and that what was the basis for us for this deal because I can’t imagine that when you’re in that leadership and you’re seeing them well especially if you’re on your knees and saying Lord I want to make sure I’m doing your will yeah I know and I can’t imagine that not being the goal of what you doing you’re bringing people to Jesus you’re opening the Bibles and that’s all great but there’s always controversy on how do you understand a particular verse doctrine yes it always had to be on your plate and on your shoulders yes because we had a wonderful team I mean we were not doing this alone there was a number of very good ministers with us but everybody was evangelistic and and evangelists of course also Bible teachers I should say but but with the evangelistic and and missionary focus and of course the evangelist is he’s there to preach caring MA to get people to come and to come to Jesus more than then okay what is happening now and how do we treat teach and form these people and in what way do we do it so we were working with both these things but it was a it was an amazing thing with many miracles that happened but step by step there was two things one was the question of unity and the second was the question of authenticity I’m thinking maybe this a good time to take a break that mm why don’t we do that if we can reload early but let’s take a break there because these are the two things yeah yeah all the years we’ve been doing the journey on program those are often the issues that come up many people on when you finally get to it mmm yeah these are the issues that are very key so let’s come back to the back test welcome back to the journey home I’m Marcus Grodi your host and alphand migite Ekman I paused them right in the middle of the journey you’re starting to confront two issues which seemed I imagined you look back were it’s gonna happen in the sense of you you have these people have on fire conversions to Jesus Christ’s love for scriptures trying to live that out that’s the beginning of the journey well pretty soon now what you know where do you take them then how do you keep them together and you’d mentioned just before the break really two issues that it we’re the start for you yes it was the issue of unity because when you in a work like this of course you you you come across and this confrontation also with other Christian groups and you also find

yourself and you see that well this is wonderful what is happening it’s a form of a revival and or a harvest time and the harvest you must bring them into barns you know I mean otherwise you destroy it so it’s a form of church play it was charged panting on on on a big scale but you also come in contact with others and and there are friction and the different understandings and the feeling of being a part of something that that obviously the Lord is doing because he loves souls and he who thirsts for souls and the end and at that time in Eastern Europe and still I would say there’s so many that needed to hear the gospel but am I also a part of an increased division that that question started to bother me a bit I had very unique experience actually in Albania we were in Anabella Albania in 1991 one of the most easiest come oh yeah yeah I would say the most data North Korea they still have a communist person at that time but a few in the government were Democrats so we came in contact with the Minister of Culture and to make it short we were invited to the stadium in Tirana to do a gospel meeting and this meeting was that may 20,000 people came yeah so it was substantial and and it was an amazing event we got our own television and it really reached the whole nation preaching Jesus to donations so strongly that the President himself called innocent stop this and the the one that that the editor you said the one that holds that no problem he refused to stop it he he kept it for two hours so it was very it was powerful afterwards we met the secretary that would be the secretary of the coming president and he had been there he was so happy and he said this is wonderful I’m also Catholic and I was thinking I’m not a Catholic I’m a Protestant I’m Lutheran in justification by faith through grace or by grace through faith but I’m also a Methodist in sanctification the I was a Baptist in more of when it comes to how we baptize but not the essence of baptism but muscle Pentecost I believe in the Holy Spirit but I’m the charismatic you know more than just one thing about all the spirit and and of course we preach faith and weird and I think how do I explain this to this man I thought this in one second so after this race through my mind I just said well that’s wonderful brother you know but it stuck with me when he said I’m also a Catholic so the something in what he said that started a process in me what about the Catholics what about the cafĂ©’s you had you ever in your lives before ever considered the Catholic no it is no I mean we’ve little bit in contact doing this but more studying theology and but nothing else so they were not even on the radar so to speak but as we got out we came into contact with Catholics and those issues came up well Catholics they are they are they Christians or not you know and and all this and and it started to bother us and and we started to and the other thing I would say so unity was one thing and the other thing was of course problems with leadership in our own movement things that started to happen that was not so easy to take care of how do we take care of it doctrinally are we thinking the same thing or is everybody just reading the way they want to read it and and these things came up and different manifestations and charismatic says this sound is it not sound who defines it who decides all these issues start to come and and independent charges or not and so what about bishops and all these things and and in the midst of is there was one thing that came strongly in a minute and it was the question what is the essence of the church not the not the practice not the the evangelism or the or the mission but what is the essence of the church and this this little line it just stuck with me and I couldn’t get away from it and in this now we in the end of the nineties yes and we’re starting starting to think about these things and we actually run the year 2000 a round there yeah and we had tried really to reach out and be have a friendly friendly relationship with the Lutheran’s our old friends you know our hometown and they were very very good to us and we were almost surprised yeah surprised that they are Church yeah well me because it has been many many years since we had been in

fellowship with them but it was good yeah so when it came to unity we were thinking of the Lutheran’s and other Christians in Sweden we did it at that point think of the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church in Sweden is is not big and you don’t really notice it and not we we hadn’t at that time around 2000 so our units to thinking did it was more unity between Protestants then we decided to move to Israel we sent out from our church to Israel so we yeah so we wanted to start a study center there and a Bible School and we did 2002 so and live that till 2005 and these three years in Jerusalem have meant a lot yeah I did because we were starting as I mentioned before Bible schools in in many places and so it would be natural for us and and we also took groups to Israel but but moving there and ought to get a different experience because we came there with the one set of purposes and but when we were there every turn behind every corner was Catholic we met Catholics everywhere yeah and it was so yeah and that it was right then that I had read a book about saying st. Bridget’s thank you get out of Sweden because it hurt 700 year jubilee was coming up and I thought I’d I need to know more about her I have her name I need to know this woman really was because you you don’t hear much of her in the Swedish society yeah it’s kind of like in the United States people might live in Los Angeles but they have no clue what the name means Brigitta in Sweden isn’t it yeah it’s just a name yeah and but I read this book and and sort of got to know this person of Bonita and she’s an amazing woman so so strong and and with a strong relationship with Jesus and doing lots of fantastic things also in Europe in in in conflicts and Wars and she was speaking to the Pope and she was speaking to the priests and bishops I was amazed by her but one thing I couldn’t understand and it irritated me and that was her relationship with Mary I couldn’t really understand it so we were talking and I said that it’s probably you know that time probably just confused mer with the Holy Spirit yeah that’s why because the Holy Spirit speaks and leaves and we were not married speaking and eating there was that was new to us yes so so now we come to Israel and and what where do we live we moved to an kerim a village in the outskirts of Jerusalem the place where John the Baptist was born see and and this is a village where Mary came rushing up to Elizabeth you know and we had our office on that Street by Mary as well so now I think okay Mary’s everywhere here I have and I realize now by this time that I I don’t know what the Catholics teach about Mary I presume I know but now I and I think no I don’t I really don’t I have to find out when you live in a Swedish Society yeah I mean you have a certain outlook of course everybody does wherever you come from and and so so socially historically I perceive him politically and and and theologically we had a certain mindset when it came to the Catholic Church so we kind of thought that this is what they are this is what they teach but what we did find out at that time was the most of these things I just prejudices we really didn’t know yeah and that’s what we were starting to find out that we didn’t know yeah so same same bigot I really helped me to go further and and find out more about Mary and we started to read books about Mary and I thought okay now I’ll read Catholic book of course I now I need to read carefully folks about not about Mary to be fair I get to know what the Church teaches now that of course revolutionized our thinking because and you said that many times that we felt sometimes we were treated wrong by the media or they didn’t understand where we came from and how can secular media understand anyway and maybe other Christians sometimes said things about us and we thought we could explain this but you’re not even listening exactly but we felt now we felt that I’m doing the same carefully and behaving like that and I’ve heard to shame you how we did so that’s why I devoured books about Mary and they were of course

certain things about Mary that that are difficult for us for Protestant to understand about her perpetual virginity her Immaculate Conception two very important things but actually I read a Scott Hans book and many others and when I saw and I understood the explanation of the Immaculate Conception because I was thinking no Protestantism has explained to me how Jesus the third the second person in the Trinity can become man without being polluted by sin if Mary’s just a normal girl right she would carry you know the stain of sin and into him and nobody in the Protestant world really talks about this and it it was it was something that I had to understand because I knew that Jesus is the Lamb of God and he’s he’s totally of course without sin was a very important christological question yeah and when we found out that that Mary is really Christology in one way it opened up also for us to be more open and and to understand her role that we we hadn’t done it so because basically I mean Protestant circles to you you mentioned Mary once a year now there’s quick quick weekend and on it and sometimes we’ll have a statue of Mary out there and the nativity set but we don’t believe in statues you know it seems like one of the key things is as Protestants when we thought about Mary but how Catholics thought about Mary we always assumed that they were focusing on Mary but we didn’t realize that the Catholic Church teaches about Mary is about Jesus exactly always about Jesus when we saw this so clear and our actually a Mary enhances and protects the humanity and divinity of Jesus it became very evident how central Mary is to our faith and that opened up for us to not be so afraid and but I mean we’re still bit nervous about this the strange thing is because I’ve we’ve met converts and many colors and and many of them are also on your program I’ve heard it that Mary maybe is the last thing but for us it was the opposite we had to understand this otherwise we couldn’t go further but so she was she was the main hindrance but we had to find out and when we did and when we understood it the puzzle came together yes very much so of course there were more things to find out what this was a very very central thing that made it come together yeah yeah yeah you had said that one of the issues okay so Mary’s helping you brought draw together was it also then helping you address this issue of the essence of the church yes yes because from your independent churches Church really is an essential no and I mean Jesus is essential the Bible is essential and how I am interpreted and well it’s not quite that simple but I mean there is an underlying thing that goes there all the time and for me it became a question of authority and and and really ecclesiology or understanding the church was what brought us into the church that I started to realize that my ecclesiology was very low and was not thought through really and that the underlying idea that the church is always the problem and now if we could get by the church and just get to Jesus everything would be fine it’s not food or that the church was very simple like a nice hippie movement in the beginning and then they all become bourgeoisie and you know of course not or that the Catholic Church is just an add-on add-on add-on add-on and and so as we started to read Church Fathers and and other books that led us into the first century and and when I saw that no no Eucharist is from the very beginning bishops from the very beginning and and the office of Peter which I had a problem with of course as a Lutheran and I would preach on it for years Matthew 16 after there has nothing to do the Pope this is you need your cancers exactly exactly and then then of course I started to read it again and say well of course it’s about Peter there’s no question about it when you read it so for me it was or for both of us of course it was a discovery of the church that the church is really the instrument of salvation is not an obstacle for salvation it is it is not something that human beings have added

on it is structured from the beginning but then and and I start to read Newman and and that helped me a lot that the development of the church is not necessarily evil the catastrophe theory that comes mainly I would say evangelical fundamentalist idea that the first up to 70 then everything collapsed when the last apostle died and and then of course when Constantine came in it died off and which is absolutely a false understanding of history and so history and the continuity and the authenticity and the sacramentality I had to change my views and all of this which basically meant this the discovery of the church and that discovery was very fulfilling very fulfilling it also solved a lot of my problems on the mission fields and here and back home and in how a church should be a local church should be structured and what causes a lot of problems if we don’t do it this way now I have wonderful brothers and sisters in all these movements and the one that I was a part of myself and I love them and stim highly don’t have criticized them but I feel very strongly that that this was all God’s Way of saying if you want to look further if you want to go deeper this is the way you have to go because that often becomes the issue it’s one thing okay now I understand that church means about Mary now I understand what they mean about priests or bishops so you can get to the point where okay I’ve totally cleared up I know that’s what the Church teaches but but the issue of the mandate for you to leave yes all of this in your position and I don’t mean honor but I mean you’re in a responsible position claiming the gospel to leave that to go there’s good well–we’re that mandate come from for the two of you to realize I gotta make this move yes this was a growing insight we had I mean in one way if you look at it from a human standpoint it’s crazy I mean everything was going well and and every wonderful people we love them we don’t want to leave them or betray them but there was something that just another four words actually I mean the first word was discovery that we needed to discover because I we we needed more tools and we needed to have more broaden our knowledge and to teach our people not to be too narrow the second thing when you discover something you start to appreciate it and or you can say well that was on the phone and you just leave it know you appreciate it you must start to draw from it and it means you draw closer to it so these three words discover appreciate and draw and draw closer to it was fine with me but then there was a fourth word unite and I put that on the back burner so to speak that was before we’ll see what happens but but then step by step I think we were we were locked in by that maybe it’s not positive word we were overwhelmed by truth but this is not just a good thing this is not just something beautiful this is true and it is true I even talked with a famous Catholic priest and I said if this is true it’s like standing in in sin in Europe we have bakeries you know nice windows and you have all this big good stuffing they don’t talk about you have your wonderful pastry good coffee and great pastry so but if there’s a glass window I can look at it I can like but I can’t touch it I get I have to go in so so so I told this person that I sever personally talk to different types and if this is true why should I stay on the outside and we had many discussions about this at home we lived in Jerusalem till 5 2005 and I remember already then that we saw this is true you know what you would do yeah it was frustrating but then we felt an obligation of course and I taught and we both did we taught the church and helped them to open up more and they did and unity I started teach unity much more and and and it was very good but still I don’t think the people of course they didn’t want us to leave but also they did not expect that we should take this step but step by step we can pinpoint that we felt that we would be dishonest and we will be disobedient if we did not do it because if we handle truth in a flippant way

something it hurts our souls and so we are we were convinced but not in a triumphant way oh I have the truth now and you all are all wrong not I was not like that it was a drawing and humbling and and also thinking about of course the price that people might not like it and so on but we came to this point where where we were overwhelmed then this is what we need to do yes I was good but it’s not always the case where the two come step by step together that’s not always the case no and you did yeah we did and we had a great time in this discovery process it actually went on for 1213 years yeah and we were we we didn’t know for many years in this we didn’t know that we would end up in the Catholic Church but we wanted people to to understand the Catholic Church and the dogmas so we started bringing pastors to Rome for a study tour so we took lots of people to Rome we had great time there and listened to like father can tell a message came and spoke to a group and many others it was absolutely wonderful and people loved it and I think this was a process also a maturity in in the movement that we must be opened and also reconciled we must understand that the historic churches I had a very strong above both of us but in in in in caring where we lived I was we weren’t walking one day and we passed an olive tree and and I heard the Holy Spirit on the inside said look at it it’s green is dead isn’t it and I look like this yeah and then I heard very distinct it look again so I looked and it was full of small little green leaves but the trunk was so you could see right through the trunk the the tree looked like it was dead and that was one of the things you know that we would pride ourselves about where the latest movement and where the cutting edge and so there’s an element of priety you know there this chronological snobbery that CS Lewis talks about and that the latest is always the best and and I had to I had to really repent right there on the spot because the Lord said don’t ever again say that something is dead think of the historic churches yeah so opening being more open believing and praying for unity helping pastors to understand unity that was all gone fine but clearly we’ve had the Lord said this is not enough where you need to unite you – you need and this is what I felt I hate even ministers it was said my wife okay if you become Catholic you go in their mission that you win there and help them you guys had not come home this is not the point the point is I need the Catholic Church I need the sacrament and it was the sacraments I need the sacraments hmm praise God for the Word of God and I believe I always will I love the Word of God love Jesus Christ with all of my heart but the sacraments I was missing yeah well you know I was thinking that that that place where Jesus says about the new new wine and old wineskins and that that whole idea it’s often taken out of context out of context to mean you get really old only the new yes but what he says in there no you the new wine and the old you lose both you destroy both yes both are important mmm the great tradition is a great foundation it’s always a newness always new which means always conversion continual conversion yet we we’re always building on that which we have received you know we have the wonderful that you so when to come in and what you experience first of all we made it public the 9th of March 2014 and of course we had a lot of preparations because because we couldn’t really give this out a little bit at the time so we have to inform the pastors and the leaders in the church first and it that went very well but some of them have expected expected it of course because the way we were talking and what we were doing but anyway in ninth of March it was a of course I’ll never forget that because I went to church Sunday morning or we went and I went up and have prepared about a 50 minute long sermon to explain this and we also know that as soon as I say this this will hit the media so they were there was a certain time in the middle of the sermon where I said and because of this we have decided to join the Catholic Church and at that

minute a man in the audience one of our workers pushed the button and all the press you know messages that we that were prepared when out so the the audience wonderful people of course they they knew many knew in their hearts that something was going on but this is not per they expected so some some did expected others were in shock some were sad and some were upset and then you can understand this because I mean we have birthed and we have lived with this and this been a pastor there for thirty years but a year before we put in a new pastor wonderful man so he was now the pastor and I have retired from that position and for one year so which made it much easier yes for this yes in its understandable when you think how many years you two went from discovering and then going through all the reading and all the preparation to that your congregation doesn’t have all that background understand no no of course not we were trying as best as we can and I wrote books and I did seminars and I pre had taught about these things but of course that doesn’t mean that at least through the actual decision some people accused us later that you have prepared this from the very beginning you had a scheme you had a plan and you just were but it was not so it was a gradual discovery and every time we discover something we said well we have to say this we became confident about talking about it but before I was not so finally we came and we made the decision and the pastor was very gracious when up afterwards and blessed us and people actually applauded and and so it was a but it was a very special moment because we men we knew that this meant we were leaving a ministry that was very very dear to us and that we worked so hard for many years for thirty years but we we still knew that and and we had such a peace about coming to the church there was a period from the ninth of March to 21st of May 21st of May we were received into the church that period was full of newspaper and I need writings articles blogs you name it it was quite chaotic and also for the the leaders in the church to do counseling to help the the members of the church and so on it was quite it to mostest time for all of us but the church came through it and they are doing very well and they’re wonderful people and we did what we knew we had to do also that in the end even though some people will not do not understand and do not understand it I think in the end P many more will understand why and so for us coming into the church the Bishop of Sweden to receive us for us to be able to be confirmed as a sacrament and to receive the Eucharist for the first time as Catholics it’s an overwhelming experience going to to sacrament of reconciliation doing the general reconciliation confession it was it cannot be hardly explained how what a profound experience it was to come in contact with the sacramental sacramental grace and and what it does to you there’s so many things I’d love to ask you to about two minutes to go it’s one thing to be on the oscillate Church looking in and discovering now that you’re in what would you say is one of most beautiful things you’ve discovered now that you’ve been a Catholic it is actually it for me I think it is the knowledge of that that I am actually now a member of the historic church that goes back to the roots to Jesus and their process it means so much to me because our own church that we found it is only 30 years old and it’s something else to know that now now we do belong to the the church has stood through history and it’s not just up to you to just to decide what the essence of the church is right discovered it’s been our overall it’s been around for a long time and it is the feeling that the church carries you you don’t have to carry everything and one nice thing about is that we were ever brought into the church in the Bridget in convent of Stockholm and you know it started with st. Bridget’s Sangeetha and it for us ended there in their convent in Stockholm that they’re listening yeah an exciting thing of now what we are this past year we of course we have to deal with some of the issues some people that are wondering where many times being able to talk to people we are also traveling been to Poland to

Kazakhstan to England and we used to travelling and we love it and we have been writing a book about our journey excellent what a great privilege to have you both on the program thank you so much for sharing so much and you know our prayers are with you both as we sent issah pate hugger all the things God is do we pair you did to do to share with now that you’re home thank you both and thank you for joining us on this special episode the journey home I hope you’ve enjoyed their journey and I do pray that their journey is an encouragement to you god bless you thanks

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