there is no free trade with a totalitarian regime that controls everything they have no profit motive right they control the balance sheet and profit statement of every firm no one knows that chinese companies listed on u.s stock exchanges have a combined market capitalization of over half a trillion dollars but they aren’t forced to comply with american financial regulations and beijing restricts access to full audits congressional members on both sides of the aisle have demanded more transparency and the trump administration has made moves to stop u.s pension funds from investing in chinese firms so where is the u.s china relationship headed will the u.s decouple completely and why does it look like the chinese leadership is getting nervous about their ability to maintain power in this episode we sit down with former congressman dave bratt dean of the liberty university school of business this is american thought leaders and i’m yanya kalik dave bratt great to have you back on american thought leaders thank you thank you john great to be here so well it’s great for me to be here you know you’re organizing this event uh how is it that liberty you has appeared here in d.c for a couple of days and what’s the motivation here yeah well the the fall kirk center is sponsoring the event and that comes from a combination of president jerry falwell and charlie kirk so fall kirk and the center is devoted to faith and freedom and so we just pay attention to the first principles and you know the judeo-christian tradition the constitution rule of law free markets pro-business attitude the founders that you know set the foundation and so uh this event is dedicated you know to 1.4 billion chinese who live behind a firewall who don’t have liberty who don’t have information who are being repressed beyond comprehension right work in a seven day week 12 hours a day no one knows about it if you don’t obey there’s a social credit score your reputation gets nixed you get penalized uh and so you know we we don’t like that and so we just want to make the world aware of what’s going on with 100 1.4 billion people created in god’s image and so we’ve had a you know just uh a stellar set of panels with you know tom cotton and ted cruz is in today and charlie kirk’s in today and senator marcia blackburn yesterday and the freedom caucus and it’s just all centered around trying to get some information out to the american people and they’re starting to get the memo but it’s hard even even the first hurdle is hard to get over just the idea that regardless of intent or not china sent us the virus it came out of wuhan i don’t think the people have the memo on that yet and so i think it’s a little more than that i think there is intent and it’s clear they let you know they shut down their airports in wuhan and shut down beijing their own capital but they sent 400 000 flights abroad to milan new york city san francisco came to the white house all their higher ups shook hands after they know this human human contact with the president united states and the entire you know leadership in the white house and so i mean that that’s just kind of a shocker and then you got the lies with the w.h.o and all that and so we we we just are trying to get the basic facts out uh for some reason some of the press doesn’t want to cover anything having to do with china and then you wonder what the motives are there and i i taught economics for 20 years and so it’s always kind of follow the money well so let let’s talk about that briefly yeah um you know one of the things we talked about yesterday with the congressman banks yeah you know something that he’s been following but almost nobody has been willing to cover is this idea of the china daily one of the propaganda mouthpieces of the ccp appearing at the front door of every congressional office it’s amazing in the middle of cove it doesn’t matter rain or shine um and to this day there’s it’s not clear how this is actually actually happening um so there’s you’re talking about some kind of financial incentive what what kind of uh media uh i guess complicity what what is it that you’re you’re talking about here well it’s just you know the american people are are pluralistic and we’re used to it and so if another paper shows up it’s like no big deal until you realize it is part of the propaganda wing of the ccp and most americans right now couldn’t tell you what the ccp is right so if there’s a paper that shows up it’s another paper we live in in a in a land where all ideas are welcome but now that’s uh under threat right so across universities uh the the neo-marxist faculty are in charge of the universities and it’s hard to teach uh you know religion and philosophy

and ethics and history and all that and uh it’s crazy but it mirrors you know the cultural revolution that took place in china they got rid of all the olds right the old history the old language the old ethics confucianism the old they got rid of all of it the chinese come after religion and ideas first because that’s a threat to the ruling regime and so the american people they don’t get the intent there that this is the ccp uh just slowly right everybody that’s in the know knows china’s fight is at war with us it’s an information war and it’s not kinetic they don’t want to do kinetic they saw what we did in the gulf war they know there’s no match and so they can the kinetic war is out but the information war is a slow drip and for the chinese the politics is the war and the politics is the use of language and the use of language most effectively goes to the press and the ideology and so it’s coming in it’s affected our k-12 it’s affected the you know confucius institutes of the most obvious on on higher ed campuses but it’s it’s far more deep than that and so that’s what we’re trying to get out through this summit you mentioned free markets you know that’s something that uh falkirk centers behind i know you personally are are very behind um i think there’s a number of people who probably have and are accusing at least some of the speakers here and even perhaps your own position of being a protectionist one right can you speak to that please yeah yeah well and that that uh you know has been a change for me personally uh we we i worked at the world bank right and i did economics i did regressions with all the countries right 180 countries in the world roughly in the in the data set right you run a regression on growth on all the independent variables and uh so in those regressions you know this is barrow mancu these are the highest harvard guys and the nobel winning papers and they exclude uh communist countries command economies from the data set because all the underpinning micro economics and macro is based on the assumption that the price system is at work and that you have free markets working right and so in a command system you don’t have that so they’re set aside into pure economics but getting to the question uh it’s become more apparent to some economist at least and then especially on the political level uh that there is no free trade with a totalitarian regime that controls everything they have no profit motive right they control the balance sheet and profit statement of every firm no one knows that right and we let their firms into our index funds and exchanges and they don’t have to be audited by the sec and all of our firms do so this is a shocker to american people you can own a chinese firm and no questions in the past when you’re grown at 10 percent like the chinese have been you’re gonna make money but now it’s nine eight seven six five four percent maybe and maybe a little dive with the virus below that so now you better watch your money and so we’re zooming in on that uh but just to get back to your question yeah the free market assumption uh we’re not dealing with the free trade partners and after world war ii we set up the liberal bretton woods order with the rest of europe and the rest of the world everybody’s on board that platform and everybody got rich we made friends with our arch enemies the japanese and the germans we’re friends with them now we traded we got rich together we share the same basic liberal fundamental institutional setups but china is the different one and we were hoping for 30 years right kissinger nixon all the way through that hey okay we’re going to start we’re going to get the next generation rich they’re going to like markets they’re going to like capitalism then democracy will follow and that has not followed and the evidence has been in for too long now and not only hasn’t it followed in 1999 they wrote a document called unrestricted warfare and they said we’re at war with you and we’ve been slow right the americans are like what do you mean you’re at war with us and so everybody should read that document they’re at war uh and the virus even if not 100 intentional a punch they are using it and the instability to message and spread uh disunity in this country across the land and they’re a part of it and there’s no doubt about it and that’s in the papers that come to our office from china every day you know so these uh uh germany and japan uh you know and the us and other countries you know there’s there’s a set of rules as you mentioned and they you know of course there’s always people trying to skirt the rules but generally the rules are followed there’s ways to hold people accountable and so forth but to the to your point of asymmetrical warfare under the chinese communist party china has been pretending to follow the rules giving lip service to all the rules but the actions have been very different right tell me what you know about that well the most explicit i think it was last

year they’re in the rose garden in the white house saying they will never weaponize the south china sea islands six months later they’re weaponizing the islands and we found out that the u.s pension fund system for all retirees and government and congress and the military are invested in weapon systems in china we are investing in chinese weapons systems and companies aimed at us right so the president ended that a few weeks ago that was called tsp the thrift savings plan yeah and that went through the senate 98-0 shocking so we got some bipartisan i was a little surprised at that and i’m very happy with that but now the next piece is the audit piece right so you got firms like alibaba located in the cayman islands not audited their balance sheet is only as good as china’s balance sheet if china says you’re you got zero tomorrow morning alibaba they got zero and same with every other chinese firm and then you have the information warfare tick tock and all the chinese info firm your kids are addicted to this kind of thing and by law the back end of every one of those it firms platforms the information must flow to the ccp the chinese communist party and just by to be clear when i say china i’m talking about the ccp here right our goal is to liberate the chinese people from the ccp repression well that’s interesting so uh you’re i guess alluding to secretary pompeo’s recent speech where i think it was certainly the first time i’ve ever seen a sitting secretary of state talk about connecting directly with the chinese people and identifying the chinese communist party in the same discussion as the enemy how do you see this as playing out in the near future the attorney general barr gave a speech for the same underpinnings and he did the same on the home front playing out he said if you’re a firm in the u.s and you’re collaborating uh with the chinese ccp you’re on notice right we’re watching and so there you have on the domestic front a clear signal being sent watch your p’s and q’s and uh be careful what you’re sharing because there’s legal uh issues at stake and then the secretary pompeo similarly in terms of the relation between nation states and et cetera he sent clear signals that the ccp and he you know made a remark uh off off the reagan you know trust but verify with respect to the soviet union but china is far more of a threat and so his line there was distrust and verify and so boy that’s quite a strong uh remark right but we first of all we distrust you because you’ve lied too many times right so in the rose garden and then with a world health organization and the person-to-person communication and you know we’ve managed all this and you know i heard i’ve heard some of the more famous chinese people make a quip the other day during the cultural revolution tens of millions of people dying starvation agriculture’s in the dumps and china’s press statement said bumper crops right just amazing tens of million people dying from starvation and the ccp communist press ideology communication is bumper crops crops overflowing with abundance and the same thing’s going on now right the dams are getting ready to break there’s huge there’s going to be huge repercussions the region where the dams affect two-thirds of the agriculture productivity they’re already hurting and china is basically saying the same thing now right we’re growing fast it’s all good the middle class is good bumper crops no no it’s all not true and their own people don’t have any way of knowing that that’s the that’s the tragedy so i think i think you were referring to the great leap forward and alongside that cultural revolution earlier no but that’s really um fascinating one of the things that people have been talking about here is this idea of bringing manufacturing back to the us or at least making the manufacturing not be based in china where it could be a national security threat notably i saw rosemary gibson is around um who basically literally wrote the book on how the prescription medicine precursors are largely manufactured in china what are your thoughts on this there’s been a lot of debate you know big pharma is really uninterested in seeing this happen this repatriation that’s what we’re seeing right um how important is this and uh you know how much of a national security issue is this well the the uh china rx book uh by rosemary yeah that there there’s no question that’s all coming back right because that’s a national street we we don’t have life-saving uh anti-infection drugs made in the united states

zero right so some of that has to come back and now the interesting part is the firms all the mbas coming out of harvard somehow missed you know econ 101 which anti-trust don’t put all your eggs in one basket they miss finance 101 which is to just you know don’t put all your eggs in one investment basket well they did and it’s just shocking they violated all the rules of economics and finance 101 diversify and so now they’re in a bind because it’s going to recoil those supply chains are coming back whether you want to or not just from public pressure and the chinese decline in gdp growth right so now the demand is not there uh like it was and so the supply chains are coming back for a bunch of reasons and now that poses significant just operation aspect for business right you got to run that supply chain somehow and retract it somehow quick and those are not easy business questions to manage and so we’re going to be in a mess for several years right i think everybody kind of knows that japan is paying supporting companies who wish to repatriate their supply chains or at least move them out of china um what do you think of that type of a policy what do you think about the us doing it no it’s super some sort of tax credit for moving the supply chain back here tom cotton i think he said yesterday’s got legislation in to that effect and now you just mentioned japan and i just met you know trump has been pursuing this america first thing and it sounds narrow self-interested and myopic at first blush but it’s fascinating that we have a basically a freedom alliance right now building and japan’s one of our best friends right and india modi and then australia and you go around the whole asian community and then the sub-saharan african presidents are railing at china because they’ve abused them on the belton road initiative where china’s trying to buy u.n votes and they’ve abused the sub-saharan african countries treated them terribly the horn africa countries ethiopia et cetera and it’s a mess and so ironically the america first policy has uh the queen elizabeth battleship and fleet now coming from the uk going through the south china sea and so isn’t that refreshing we got the band back together right it’s the good guys versus the bad guys and the uk is with us and you know europe now is with us i think germany and the uk are rethinking huawei investments and infrastructure platforms which it was kind of shocking they were going to go in that direction and so there’s there’s a lot of good news coming in on the international front it turns out usa is a good friend right but we just expect everybody to play by the same rules and pay part of the bill so you know you said it’s good guys and bad guys again is it really that simple yeah it is that simple the uh the chinese know good uh from evil confusion ethics uh respect your elders tell the truth all you know if you want to just do aristotelian ethics you know on kind of a neutral secular ground they know good from bad but the ccp does not and they will not allow the teaching of anything that transcends the party right so the first thing to go after underground catholic church underground protestant church whatever is god they say if you’re if you’re going to worship god you have to worship gigi ping and the ccp first that’s the top god i i think china is cracking right now right there’s a paper called the beige book it’s the best data we have the one of the chamber guys shares it i forget his name right off but in in the third quarter of 19 all the red lights were blinking on the china dashboard all the economic fundamentals were red light red light red light all of them and it’s been going off for a few years prior but all of them are going off and then not causality but boy it’s one heck of a coincidence the fourth quarter of 19 the virus goes right so jiji pang and former leaders told bush what’s your what’s your worst nightmare my nightmare is i gotta feed the middle class well if you’ve got all the red lights going off and your economy’s uh tanking this is prior to the virus and then the fourth quarter the virus goes out you know i mean curious minds wonder what’s going on right and then at a minimum they’ve used this as an assault on us but i think there are some signs that china is not as strong as we thought and so we’re we need to analyze that and take a good look a lot of people here are saying this word that uh strikes fear into the hearts of many you know decoupling you know you know complete some sort of complete separation um definitely not something that a lot of free market folk would be thinking about very often what are your thoughts on america decoupling from the chinese economy yeah well uh the way i go at it is fairly simple uh there’s a virus that came from wuhan china uh it’s caused deaths in the tens of

hundreds of thousands in in our country we would like to know the dna makeup and structure of that virus we would like to know the source where to come from and the the information so we can help find a vaccine to fix that so in my view if china is even in the realm of being a civilized country you say china we would like to come in uh we want to investigate that lab talk to your people because we want to solve that problem if they say no to that proposition you absolutely decouple 100 bye-bye right and that tariffs is this big right there’s a few hundred billion the financial sector going through wall street is in the trillions right so that one and china’s cooked and china i was hinting with the beige book that they’re hurting a little bit and one sign that they’re they were moving toward a consumption economy right they wanted they that’s their goal and the investment pete the government investment piece worn out it’s welcome they got skyscrapers all over the place you build the first airport the raider returns okay and then the second one is lower and the third one you’re broke so they’re they’re at their end run and now they’re the sign that tells me they’re they’re weak and scared uh that the words getting out is hong kong and i think they’re willing to give up hong kong and hong kong isn’t just some little uh trading port right that’s their dollar mechanism that’s how they get dollars in the trillions to fund the ccp and so if they’re willing to give up hong kong as a dollar trading hub that tells me they’re looking internal and they’re gonna go and that’s even scarier right a ccp that’s internal repressive is is just scary beyond comprehension but that’s a little indicator that if they’re willing to give up hong kong and the external trade routes etc and the full external that made them rich they may they may be looking inward way too much in a sign of weakness are they counting on u.s big business or international big business in preventing that from happening there’s certainly been a lot of voices from wall street and the like that are very uninterested in any discussion of this future well there’s going to be inertia it’s not going to go overnight and wall street’s going to go kicking and screaming and you know all of a sudden you’ve got the wall street journal writing articles we care about the people of hong kong you know don’t do this too fast because it’s going to hurt the people of hong kong the people of hong kong are screaming for us to take their side in this fight right so i mean if anyone cares about the people of hong kong watch go talk to them right and why don’t you also care about 1.4 billion people no one’s shown this humane liber liberal strand of caring for the chinese until capital’s ready to leave then all of a sudden the the sympathy comes out so i think it’s a little late in the game on that one but you know the yeah the big firms it’s going to be it’s going to be delayed right there there’s not going to be some overnight transformation but china china knows that too so they got an unwind period over the next five or ten years probably and they’re they’re gonna have to restructure how long will this sort of decoupling take in your mind well and i i’ve made one big error so far it depends on this election right so trump came in first president 40 years uh taking on china had had if biden wins biden and clinton did the most favored nation stuff they ensured that china didn’t have to be audited all the comments to pass so uh if biden wins his friend of china uh china’s biden’s kid got a 1.5 billion dollar deal from china that’s been widely reported and uh so that if that case happens then there will not be decoupling right so buying the democrat party will protect the billionaire class uh and their investments in china and will revert back to the status quo uh in some sense there’ll still be rational business decisions that hey china is not all it’s cracked up to be and some of those supply chains will come back for that reason but the uh political uh at the international level uh if biden wins then uh china and the u.s have a much more robust relationship than if trump wins okay so let’s say decoupling does work out you know by whatever channel so it was it was bill clinton that set up the mfn status and everything else actually you know as you’re probably aware you know speaker pelosi was one of the people very much against leading leading the charge against that back in the day um so there and maybe this speaks to some of the bipartisanship around china yeah but let’s say by whatever what means the decoupling does progress how long is that going to take uh the d cu i i think it takes a decade or two uh for the for decoupling to take place i mean there’s just so much inertia and production lines and supply chains and parts and pieces to the puzzle you can’t just rip that band-aid off right even if you go at it with that intent it’s still going to be

a decade but that that does but the harm the announcement effect right markets are forward-looking so if the us announces decoupling and that we’re moving that that that psychology is what’s most important for economics right so even though the decoupling might take everybody gets the clear signal right if we say hey we’re decoupling wow that that’s a shocker the announcement effect a loan coming from pompeo already i’d say you’re already 20 on the way there just that he’s laid down a marker and it’s going to be hard for any secretary to come back and argue against the the premise of his argument which is very powerful so there’s a lot of stats out there that show us that americans are much more aware of the china threat and not just americans frankly across almost every nation certainly in the free world there’s a greater awareness of china being a threat china not being a positive you know entity but in your press release if i recall you said that americans aren’t very aware of this um so you know what what what will it take to get americans aware and uh and what exactly is the most important thing for them to be aware of well i think one one fact the fact that china intentionally sent the virus our way right to what extent you know did they formulate the virus in a lab we don’t have that evidence yet but do they open up and allow the virus to go out yes so there’s intent in the mind that’s clear if the american people see that one fact and the media is not covering this right the cnns the embassy embassies in the new york times and washington post they’re not getting near this thing because they politicize the thing they know that’s very helpful for president trump and very damaging to biden and so that one fact if that gets out the virus came six months ago you were going to sporting events you were going to church you were going out to eat and you were in good health all of that is a disaster we’re in a dystopian nightmare right now across the board 40 million displaced from their work tens of thousands of deaths illness all over the place no sports you haven’t gone to easter service for the first time in 2000 years that’s a shocker right this has never happened that is all because the virus came from wuhan all of that so that’s why that one hurdle is devastating if that claim is true that they sent us the virus everything else hangs on that premise and the left knows it and they’re horrified of it so how is this information being spread how’s liberty involved it’s certainly a fact yep well i yesterday i asked every single candidate up there that question uh from cotton to blackburn in the senate to the 14 house freedom caucus folks to banks and crenshaw in the house they’ve been leading the fight on china and everyone agreed china sent the virus and so the words getting out it’s a matter of how they articulate that you know the american people have a still a strong historical residue of the judeo-christian tradition building love your neighbor be kind they cannot fathom that there’s another system out there the ccp not the chinese but the ccp that could do an evil act of that magnitude they cannot internalize that evil it’s too much and so part of this it’ll take a while for for the american psyche to absorb it and when they do like churchill or whoever said right the american people are good they screw up all time but in the end they do the right thing so if i’m china i’m scared because the american people are basically good people and in the end we will do the right thing and they’re going down it’s very interesting what you just described is basically what i’ve said to people over the past decade and a half about this murder for organs industry that’s still alive and well horrible pun but in in china um people it’s just hard to fathom it’s hard to imagine you can’t just believe it on the face of it i need evidence i need a smoking gun i need how can i believe that right no live organ harvesting in china on living patients and the patients are dissidents who are the good people they’re in jail and being punished because they wanted freedom and instead of getting justice they’re murdered their organs are sold to rich folks who need an organ for transplant at the last minute and the american psyche again you have so much negativity to look at already you hear that on the news it’s like i’m sorry i just can’t handle it right i’m checking out and uh but it’s a reality and it’s it’s it’s not just a data point it’s a significant magnitude of dissidence uh and this live organ harvesting and the uyghurs and tibet and you can just go on and on and on well what about the students at liberty

first of all how many students do you have yeah and uh how are they learning about these facts yeah well that’s why that’s part of it is to the next generation learns and the next generation does care right i think i read they’re the first generation in world history that likes their parents so this is promising right so it’s unique they want to help their neighbor they want to do good in the world so that’s a huge positive we have fifteen thousand students on campus so that’s generation one i don’t even know i i know i wear the cutoffs i get okay i get confused but we have fifteen thousand students on campus and then a hundred ten thousand students out there online across the world and so uh you know the the judeo-christian tradition we train champions for christ is our is our goal and uh that is love but it’s also justice and so you know that’s there’s tension there but uh we have to get our folks educated so that they can discern what the right thing to do is i guess so my question is you know you said that there’s this one fact right yes that the chinese communist party sent the virus um if americans know that do all 125 000 students of liberty you know right that that’s my goal i’m dean of the business school yeah but we’re putting all of that up we’re going to have endless news clips coming up from this summit uh from other summits putting together the voices of the people you heard probably putting up epic times uh and just using all of that as an educated think tank right but we kind of call it an action action summit because we don’t want to just have a white paper and be done we want to hate learn and then go out and change the world build the kingdom of god so that’s our goal and this is probably the most significant issue of our age and so that should be part of the education and we’re going to get it through all right any final words before we finish up no i just thank you for the epic times and the work you do i know there’s a moral commitment there for the right reason to help the chinese and i know you have a lot of chinese dissident friends that you work with and your heart’s in the right place because everyone knows we got a big problem on our hands we’ve got to fix it make the world good right well we’ll we’ll we’ll keep doing what we can right such a pleasure to have you thank you thank you again you

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