LEO PARENTE: This weekend in racing, we had the biggest dichotomy of racing styles that I can imagine In America, we had the X Games Global Rallycross In Europe, in England, we had the Goodwood Festival of Speed Now, I could do a rant-a-thon of my own about the different styles of racing But what fun is that? And quite frankly, Shakedown these past couple weeks is starting to feel to me like the McLaren of shows, and I’m becoming Jenson Button, looking for my style So rather than me do my own thing all alone, I thought back to our Le Mans 24 and a guest we had on from Jalopnik, a guy named Raphael Orlove He’s a racing guy He knows his craft, and he has his opinions So rather than just listen to me, thought I’d invite Raphael on the show and we can debate this whole dichotomy and difference of racing Now this could turn into a great show This could turn into a First Take ESPN-style Stephen A Smith versus Skip Bayless clash of personalities and opinions It could be old guy schooling up the young guy For you old people, remember Bull Durham, the baseball movie I could take him to school He could take me to school Or it could become what I maybe fear, the equivalent of Hamilton hitting the wall at Valencia, and I’m the one who gets taken out Come back, meet Raphael, let’s talk about racing Hey, Raphael Thanks for coming by RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Hey Leo Glad you remembered me LEO PARENTE: Of course We had a good time at Le Mans And we had a little bit of spirited debate RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Indeed LEO PARENTE: I’m tired of listening to myself talk RAPHAEL ORLOVE: OK All right LEO PARENTE: And, you know, it’s like an F1 team, as I mentioned in the intro We want to try new things now We’re not really hitting it, and rather than just do the same old thing, we’re going to try our double diffuser version of you and I debating some of the things that went on this weekend RAPHAEL ORLOVE: OK, well I’m a big Shakedown fan I would not say it’s broke I don’t think it needs fixing, but I’m happy to be here LEO PARENTE: Oh great Well, first all, let’s talk about what we’re not going to talk about Let’s not talk about NASCAR that went this weekend, even though your boy, Keselowski, Twitter boy, won the race Don’t need to talk about that RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Not necessary LEO PARENTE: Don’t need to talk about Grand Am Corvette won, but I fell asleep in the six hours How about you? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Camaro won also LEO PARENTE: Oh, Camaro won also Moto GP Someone took Lorenzo out Stoner, eh RAPHAEL ORLOVE: This is so beyond my– LEO PARENTE: Oh, no it isn’t And there was World Super Bike, and Pike’s Peak got canceled But they had the X Games Global Rallycross RAPHAEL ORLOVE: That they did, and it was quite successful, I would say LEO PARENTE: Successful? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah LEO PARENTE: And then as I mentioned in the intro, I think you heard, by contrast we had the tradition of the Goodwood Festival of Speed RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yes LEO PARENTE: So where do you want to dive into this? Because you’ve got these two different styles of racing, and I’m not even sure where you sit– whether you like X Games, or I’m the old guy, and I’m supposed to take sides on Goodwood RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Well, you should definitely take sides on Goodwood, and you defnitely are the old guy here And a little bird has told me that you’re not a fan of the X Games Whereas I’m totally for it LEO PARENTE: So here’s the part where I’ll take my initial stand We can talk execution X Games, but overall I fear X Games is ruining racing RAPHAEL ORLOVE: OK, now that’s just insane for you to say that How can you even back that up? Because it’s such a good platform for getting people involved in racing It’s such a cool format for racing, that you have these– LEO PARENTE: So tell me a little bit about the popularity that you think happened this weekend RAPHAEL ORLOVE: So what you had was these great showmen You had Pastrana You had Block You had our man Mr Loeb right here And they’re in these really fantastic cars They’re like WRC cars, but totally unrestricted LEO PARENTE: Like WRC cars RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah You take a WRC, car and then you take away all the stupid rules, gubbins, and you take out the restrictors, and you have like 1,000 horsepower, and you just let it go LEO PARENTE: I’m not sure I totally agree with that, but I know where you’re going, so go ahead RAPHAEL ORLOVE: So then you take it and instead of putting them out in some field or some forest where nobody can watch it unless you’re a hiker, you put them in a stadium They’re going around It’s awesome And people can watch it’s enjoyable It’s something to get involved in LEO PARENTE: Do you think a lot of people watched it? Because I’m hearing that that really may not have been the case RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Well, I know of people that definitely did watch I definitely know that people watched whoever that guy was– Toomas, who binned it into the side of that– LEO PARENTE: OK, which gets us into the couple of crashes and drivers we lost So, if this is so popular, why did they need to bring in Sebastian Loeb, the WRC icon, to carry the show? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Well, they didn’t need to, but they definitely did And I liked that they did Because it’s not an American rallycross championship It’s a global rallycross championship LEO PARENTE: And how did he do? Versus these talents of yours here RAPHAEL ORLOVE: He won by an extremely large margin LEO PARENTE: How much? How many seconds? You recall? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: 1,000 LEO PARENTE: Close 12 RAPHAEL ORLOVE: There was no one near him

LEO PARENTE: Yeah, and Kenny Block finished second RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yes he did On the fourth run Three restarts LEO PARENTE: Something like that, yes But he was 12 seconds back racing very hard with Deegan, who was a half second with Block And Block made a big deal about the fact that he had out-qualified Sebastian Loeb RAPHAEL ORLOVE: It was a big deal for him, sure LEO PARENTE: And then got his ass kicked in the main event RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I’m going to tell you that people care People really do care if Ken Block competes and does well And actually, it’s not important that he’s winning It’s important that he’s at this level, that he’s involved, that he’s scoring points at Rally New Zealand, and he’s– LEO PARENTE: Has he ever finished second to Sebastian Loeb before in WRC? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: No Never even close LEO PARENTE: OK, and do you think that WRC has any similarity to this, or is this a kind of a perversion of racing for the entertainment value? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I’m going to say it was a perversion of racing? No It was amazing You know, you’ve got WRC, which no one watches LEO PARENTE: What? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: No one watches the WRC LEO PARENTE: No one around the globe follows WRC Really? Can you back that up? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: No one in America watches WRC LEO PARENTE: No one in America RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Which is what I care about LEO PARENTE: Really? Have you seen your views when you put stuff on Jalopnik with WRC? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: They’re low LEO PARENTE: Oh, really? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: You put a Ferrari that’s like– LEO PARENTE: What about the special stages? What about the special stages in WRC? Isn’t that like– RAPHAEL ORLOVE: It’s a lot like it The special stages are a lot like it So at the beginning of every rally you have a special stage that’s for the PR You’ve got a little jump You go through the city center It’s very exciting Ken Block crashed into a tunnel in one of them It was really cool LEO PARENTE: Did he really? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah LEO PARENTE: So here’s where I take the stand of this could be ruining racing Ford has plowed a lot of money into global rallycross RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah, you can tell LEO PARENTE: And you actually made the comment off camera that the X Games is like the Daytona 24 of rallycross, Daytona 24 of Grand Am, that after this big event, who’s following? Who’s watching? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I think there’s a lot to be said for the format And I think there’s a good reason why it would be quite successful Because you’ve got something that’s viewable, compared to something like ALMS, Grand Am, any of these old school racing types You’ve got something that’s short You’ve got something that’s on prime time They turn right And it’s not tape delayed, reviewed Formula 1, impossible to watch They put it up on YouTube It’s a good thing that people can watch LEO PARENTE: Which was an interesting point Part of what you just said Global rallycross isn’t on TV X Games is So it’s like Le Mans versus the other events, or a Long Beach versus the other– But do you think most of the viewers are watching TV broadcasters, or are they going to the internet to watch this? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: If they’re anything like me, they’re watching it like– LEO PARENTE: Me too On the internet? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: We were talking about this I can’t imagine everyone was watching it on TV I mean, I’m sure there are people who are watching on TV But no If I’m watching it, you’re watching on YouTube, you’re watching in on a forum It’s getting shared These are things you can’t do with Formula 1, because Formula 1 owner, FODA, or whatever it is, is pulling everything off of YouTube, and they get impossible to follow LEO PARENTE: Somehow I’m watching some things on YouTube for F1 Let me go back to– RAPHAEL ORLOVE: It’s a challenge They do everything to make you feel like a criminal LEO PARENTE: I’ve had a challenge finding global rallycross Let me go back to why I think this is ruining racing, potentially So Ford has spent a lot of money on global rallycross RAPHAEL ORLOVE: That they have LEO PARENTE: That they have What if they plowed that money in a bigger way into WRC, beyond their team, into bringing WRC more to America, versus this perversion of show We’re showing, by the way, a scene of the special stage at New Zealand, I think Either that, or it’s Congress in the United States RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Where Ken Block scored two points LEO PARENTE: Yay RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Hey, you know, people care LEO PARENTE: You think people care about that? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I think people care more about what Ken Block does LEO PARENTE: Than? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Specifically, I could say people care more about Ken Block’s new gymkhana video than anything Lewis Hamilton will ever do LEO PARENTE: Oh my God And if you’re right– RAPHAEL ORLOVE: And scoring points in the WRC plays into that LEO PARENTE: And if you’re right, what does that to you, say about racing? Where we’re going? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I think people appreciate something that’s relatable, something that’s cool, something that’s exciting LEO PARENTE: They don’t care about competitions? Just the show? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Now, you say this like there’s some sort of, like, secret show thing going on No I mean you’ve got something like WRC, something like rallycross, something like gymkhana You’ve got sideways action, you’ve got relatable cars, you’ve got something that people appeal to Formula 1, it’s like, it’s a step removed LEO PARENTE: Well, before we go to Formula 1, compare this to Goodwood, the Festival of Speed This weekend was Goodwood

So we had Travis Pestrana screaming about my car being faster, you took me out in the first corner, and Loeb coming and kicking ass, and Block doing his thing And then we had somewhat tradition of what really is an auto show on wheels Classic cars, race cars, Lewis Hamilton going up, and all the McLarens Lotus was the mark Hey, look at that Lotus was the mark Manufacturers showing their thing RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yes, we had the new F-Type sort of strutted its stuff in camo LEO PARENTE: So did any of that interest you versus– RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Oh, yeah LEO PARENTE: It did? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: You go on Twitter People are Instagramming pictures of it the whole time LEO PARENTE: So which one do you think was more popular? I’m not going to put you in the young guy stage only, and you don’t need to represent only them But of these two– global rallycross and Goodwood RAPHAEL ORLOVE: It’s a lot easier for me to represent the young people LEO PARENTE: And me to do the other side RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yes LEO PARENTE: Do you think there’s a comparison here? Which one do you think had more traction around the world with auto enthusiasts? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: See, you would think it would be one or the other But it’s really not You’ve got Goodwood, which people can appreciate in a way that might surprise you about people Because we care about old cars We hearken back to these glory days when Ayrton Senna was, you know, counter-steering, and there’s sparks flying off, and we love that And you go up and you see people watch clips from Jackie Stewart in like ’71 He’s like sliding past flames of the Jarama circuit, and people love that And people really appeal to something like that, going up the hill And so you might think that there would be rallycross, which is all young and it’s got Monster Energy stickers, and the announcers yell And you think that would be the only thing, and Goodwood would be totally passe, but the two can co-exist LEO PARENTE: Let’s go back to rallycross Because you referenced F1 RAPHAEL ORLOVE: That I did See, now you hold up F1 because it’s like some sort of pure thing LEO PARENTE: No, I just got back from the race And it was an event RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yes, it was LEO PARENTE: And it was a show RAPHAEL ORLOVE: And if you talk to people there, they don’t like the idea of referring to it as a show They say, well, you know, it’s the racing, and that’s the excitement And they compare it to like NASCAR, where you’ve got 1,000 yellow flags They feel it’s all very contrived LEO PARENTE: Well, that’ll end Marco thought that RAPHAEL ORLOVE: It’s boring There’s no places to overtake The tracks look so sanitized It’s just dull LEO PARENTE: See, I thought you would have gone to the show part, with things like the artificial passing of DRS RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Oh, no, I haven’t even gotten to DRS LEO PARENTE: I’m waiting RAPHAEL ORLOVE: You know, it was a couple years ago they had some press conference about what it takes to have more overtaking in Formula 1 And I can’t remember what team manager it was, but it was a really smart guy, and he just says, at this point in Formula 1, the only time you get to pass is when someone in front of you makes a mistake And these are the world’s best racers and they don’t make mistakes You don’t get passing So they took this whole effort to have more passing, and they changed the aero design, and they put in this whole DRS, and they told Pirelli that their tires have to, you know– LEO PARENTE: Do a certain thing RAPHAEL ORLOVE: They have to wear out in five laps LEO PARENTE: No, but go ahead RAPHAEL ORLOVE: And that’s totally artificial And all of these rules are just– every turn, it’s restrictive LEO PARENTE: And I blame races like rallycross, and you young people for wanting excitement and show RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I don’t think Formula 1 is worried by rallycross in the least I think maybe they should be, but they’re not LEO PARENTE: What do you think is influencing this entertainment mindset of racing? Because it really is pervasive to everything RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yes I can’t get into Bernie Ecclestone’s mind as to why he wants more overtaking I think he could care less I feel like Bernie is the man on the top, and as long as he gets what he wants, which is humongous checks from Third World countries, he’s fine LEO PARENTE: If rallycross came to New Jersey versus F1, because we may not get F1– RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I think we’ll get F1 LEO PARENTE: Which do you think would draw bigger crowds? Forget dollars Forget dollars Forget the cost of ticket If it was open, in your opinion– RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Now, this is one I really should know, because a few years back we had that huge motocross thing which came to New York, which– LEO PARENTE: God, I barely remember Yeah, yeah, yeah RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I have no idea if that did really well or not Formula 1 could do really well It could get the Wall Street people It could get a lot of people in I’m not totally convinced But I believe that there’s a huge market for like, you go up to some venue on the edge of town, and you get tons of people showing up to see this extreme racing that– LEO PARENTE: So my last question to you You mentioned the cars of rallycross RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah Which are amazing LEO PARENTE: So I have this gut reaction that no one really cares about the tech in those cars Tell me I’m wrong

RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I won’t LEO PARENTE: You won’t? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Who cares about the tech in the cars? LEO PARENTE: Doesn’t that fascinate anyone? That they are antilag heavy horsepower, all wheel drive? They go fast RAPHAEL ORLOVE: They sound like squirrels getting thrown into a wood chipper LEO PARENTE: That’s good So that bothers me If you really are right, no one cares about the cars It’s just a hand tool to put on the show Where when we were talking about Le Mans, we were kind of into the technology RAPHAEL ORLOVE: We were into the technology of Formula 1 LEO PARENTE: And of F1, too RAPHAEL ORLOVE: These things are all restrictive LEO PARENTE: So I blame the young guys RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Let’s transition to the WRC where, you hold up WRC like it’s something that people should care about, the technology The antilag The highly sophisticated mechanical– LEO PARENTE: I’m bothered that they’re screwing up the TV and the media distribution RAPHAEL ORLOVE: That’s a different issue That’s a different issue LEO PARENTE: But the terrain and the cars? How can you not like that? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: OK, well here’s the thing WRC has been extremely successful because they’ve limited the technology A few years back they had, comparing the Focus WRC to the Fiesta WRC You’ve got electronic diffs You’ve got like tons of things to make the cars prohibitively expensive LEO PARENTE: And remember Group B, all the way back to, Oh my God, we’re all insane RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Let’s not get into Group B LEO PARENTE: Wait Why not? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Because if you get into Group B that only increases my argument Because what was amazing about Group B was you took totally unrestricted cars, you had these totally bonkers fast cars, which people could relate to LEO PARENTE: And still love RAPHAEL ORLOVE: And still love But everyone knows they were too dangerous for the courses LEO PARENTE: Agreed RAPHAEL ORLOVE: So what did people do? They took the cars that were retired from Group B, and they put them on narrow tracks in England and the rest of Europe, and they made rallycross And that was awesome And everyone knows that rallycross is amazing And when you have the right cars– LEO PARENTE: You’re just making a statement RAPHAEL ORLOVE: When you have the right cars LEO PARENTE: When you have the right cars RAPHAEL ORLOVE: When you have the right cars, like you had in the ’80s, with the ex-Group B cars, you know, people racing RS200s against Audi Quattros– LEO PARENTE: So do we care about the cars at rallycross, current rallycross, or not? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I think you do You’ve got production shells, like a Dodge Dart, a Fiesta– LEO PARENTE: Did you see the video of the little kid calling out Pastrana, saying he should have gone back into a Subaru? Oh, it was brutal Brutal RAPHAEL ORLOVE: I love that stuff You’ve got like the real serious fans They love it LEO PARENTE: So what’s our conclusion? What did we solve today, other than you and I chatted up a little bit RAPHAEL ORLOVE: If we solved anything, we solved that I’m right and you’re wrong all the time No, we solved that even though there’s a level of artificiality in every racing, if there is a level of things that are awesome about it, you know, Webber passing Alonso at Spa, at Eau Rouge Or Ken Block sliding sideways over a jump in LA LEO PARENTE: is that the rallycross type moment? The great pass? Remember a couple years ago the flip roll to win? RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Oh my god LEO PARENTE: OK, so my version of what you’re saying is, if they make it more like a special stage, by raising the quality of competition, playing to the cars, playing to the technology, playing to the excitement of it, raising the game a little bit, there’s something that is worthy of consideration to the other traditional sports RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah I think we can all agree on it I don’t think it needs it I think it could use better tracks But I think if you want acceptability, it has the room to do it It’s already cool We already like it LEO PARENTE: So what do you guys think? Did we do we cover the bases? Did we miss something? Tell us what you think about rallycross versus traditional racing And tell us if you like this little dialogue, and if Shakedown needs to evolve I want to try new things as we get through the rest of this year I know you guys like me driving cars We like to go on location But there’s more we can do here, and we’re just kind of checking it out Thank you for coming RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Oh, it was my pleasure LEO PARENTE: It was all good Hope to see you again RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Indeed LEO PARENTE: Hope the audiences treat us nice Or at least me RAPHAEL ORLOVE: Yeah LEO PARENTE: You’re out See you later Thanks guys [ACOUSTIC GUITAR MUSIC PLAYING]

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